All motor power?

[Popeye]

What kind of power do our cars make on ALL motor? Are there any decent numbers out there? Or would one be better off just going with rebuilding the motor to add a turbo kit?

[blueandgoldep3]

its all in personal preference man... imo all motor needs itb's lol

[Ba82Ep3]

170-180whp fairly cheap (as far as NA goes). You would be better off starting with a k24a1 and building from there...

[RHCP0801]

my dyno on my old k20a3 with skunk2 stage 3 cams, injen cai, ssr raceheader with skunk2 megapower catback. Waste of money imo

edit also had kpro of course

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8464/dscf0145m1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/dscf0145m1.jpg/)

[blueandgoldep3]

my dyno on my old k20a3 with skunk2 stage 3 cams, injen cai, ssr raceheader with skunk2 megapower catback. Waste of money imo

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8464/dscf0145m1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/dscf0145m1.jpg/)w/o kpro?

[RHCP0801]

na it had kpro, can't run without it

[blueandgoldep3]

na it had kpro, can't run without it
wow that is pretty disappointing

[Popeye]

What about if one took the money spent on doing a K24 swap, and spent it on rebuilding the current A3 to handle the boost a little better? With all of the parts for a swap, wouldnt someone spend a solid $1500 on a K24 swap? (Im gathering that would be with a tranny.) Couldnt you take that same money and throw some parts in the A3 to make it a bit more solid? Here is what I am thinking with that...
Say I did a K24 swap. I swap the motor in, then throw a turbo kit in. We are looking at an OEM motor, with miles on it, with added stress put into it. If I took that same money, rebuilt a head (be it an A3 head, or a swap), new rods, pistons, etc., wouldnt THAT handle the added stress a bit better than an OEM motor would? I know, the K24's have better internals than the K20's. But I would be hard-pressed to believe that OEM internals would be better, and stronger, than aftermarket rods, pistons, etc.

[Ba82Ep3]

k20a3's assumed 'limit' is 300-350whp. A k24a1's assumed 'limit' is 450whp+. A k20/24a2's assumed 'limit' is 500whp+. This is stock internals on 'safe' boost levels. This is a generalization.

It is not uncommon to see more power on all platforms, but reliability suffers with more output. Honestly, anything more than 250-300whp is kinda excessive for a FWD car. Then you get into trans issues, needing an LSD, definitely needing an aftermarket clutch, excessive tire wear, etc. You can hit 250whp with a reliable all motor OEM k24 build for less $ than a GOOD turbo kit. Forged internals are really for BIG boost or race track guys.

The thing with the k20a3 is the rods and rod journals on the crank are the smallest of them all. They dont support a lot of high RPM/boost/nitrous abuse. k20a2 rods and crank drop into the k20a3 block, are forged, and open up a world of options/reliability for you.

The k24a1 is basically a stroked k20a3... but has one of the best heads (port flow wise) of all the k's (up to about 7krpm). It just lacks the LMA's for conventional 3 lobe VTEC rocker assembly/cams use. The big plus is the added 30lb/ft of TQ.

Each engine has its advantages, and unless you wanna spend an assload of $$$, you need to be realistic first of all about your finances, then your use and end goal. THEN you will need to assemble an engine out of the best components from each engine. Then you will have what you want AND what you need...

[talonXracer]

its all in personal preference man... imo all motor needs itb's lol


ITB's would be entirely useless and a serious downgrade on the A3 unless a strip only VTEC-Killer setup is installed.


If you want to build an all motor engine then start with a K20A2.


NA whp is rather costly, each additional horsepower created costs about twice as much to gain over a boosted option.

[mp_02si]

It all depends on your power goals and budget. Like was mentioned earlier, check your budget and set your power goal and then see which direction you need to go to reach those goals. The a3 is a great motor but yes it is limited. As for me I would be happy as hell to have 190 wheel so will be sticking with the a3. My budget will never allow me to be one of the fastest ones out there and I realize that. Besides I love hitting the twisties so a shitload of power is not to impotant to me anyway.

[Popeye]

Like I said, I was mainly just day dreaming about this yesterday. I would LOVE to be able to use this car as a project car when I get out of school in a couple years. I want to make it faster, yeah. But I would LIKE to do it as reliable as I can, which Im sure is most people's cases. If I can gather parts here and there, I think that might suit me better. Which is another reason for me asking questions about using the motor I have now. If I can get parts for it, they can always go in if I ever have my motor break amd NEED to go in anyways.
I hope this all makes sense. It does in MY head! Lol
If I can drop in a crank & rods from another motor into this one, then even the 300-350 range sounds great to ME. Im not trying to be the fastest thing out there. There is ALWAYS someone faster than you anyways! If I could get that much hp, I would be pretty damn happy. And hell, there's always more shit to do than just power. Suspension makes a car faster, making it lighter, adding a new clutch & flywheel & lsd, plus Im sure cv axles get stressed as well. And the list goes on.
Again, Im mainly just day dreaming. But, you never know what could happen in a couple years time.

[POOPTOOTH]

You've got alot to learn grasshoppa...

Check out k20a.org for serious all-motor setups. You might be in for a rude awakening when you realize the amount of work, money and research it takes to get anywhere NEAR the numbers you are thinking of. And it certainly isn't as easy as "dropping another crank and rods from another motor into this one"...

But dreaming is fun!

[Blah1219]

I'm in the middle of rebuilding the a3 with k20z1 internals/ k24a1 head. Be ready to wait for awhile to get everything situated, and also have a daily driver on the side. If I went with the k24a1 swap, I would have it swapped in already and driving it. I definitely spent way too much already, but im not quitting. Too much money invested. k24a1 is the cheaper route! Like the guy said above, study study that k20a.org it might make or break your dreams.

[Popeye]

If the information that has been given is correct, and the A3 will handle 300-350hp, that would be all I want anyways. If I go ahead and swap out the crank and rods from the A1, it would make the internals stronger. In other words, a tiny bit more reliable. That would allow a bit more money to be spent on a turbo kit, K Pro, lsd, etc. Those kind of numbers seem great to ME.

[02TWSI]

The a3 is notorious for shitting the bed at 300whp.not 350

[Popeye]

What reason do the A3's fail?

[02TWSI]

From what I've seen, in every case its been the rods

[Popeye]

So if I DID replace the rods and crank with forged pieces, then I would be ok, right?

[RHCP0801]

yea but that would also be a waste of money

[Blah1219]

yea but that would also be a waste of money
How could it be a waste by putting the a2/z1 piston/ rod combo crank on the a3 block? The a3 and a2 block are the same casting just the a3 doesn't have oil squirters. Since they said the a2/ z1 internals are forged, it should be fine. The op goal is 350. He can take to 8ish rpms equipped with the a2/ z1 oil pump and block internals. If I'm wrong corrected me. Not just that I rather rebuild my engine then drive someone elses abused engine.

[j0000stin]

if your on a budget. do a swap and boost.

it may sound expensive but its way cheaper that building an n/a a3 and only hitting 200whp

i keep telling everyone on this forum to swap first, boost later! i found a k24a1 for 400 bucks with only 50,xxx miles. do some research and spend your money on mods that are worth it

[Popeye]

I dont think anyone has taken offense to what I have said; but with that said, I hope no one DOES take offense at any of the things I have said. Im just trying to learn, you know? So HOPEFULLY nothing I ask will be TOO stupid of a question!
Ok, my normal "schtick" has been to take what people say is a dumb idea and make it work. If most people say that an A3 isnt the best motor to use, of COURSE I want to use it! lol I understand there are better motors out there, but hell, I have one of these sitting in the car now. If I can peice other motors onto this one to make it a stronger motor to handle more boost, and I can get to my HP goal, why NOT use it, right? I DO know that a K24 with stock internals would DEFINATELY make a better motor to build a turbo set up on. But it seems like those motors are "capable" of making big numbers. Im not wanting to have the biggest numbers out there.
I have the opportunity to purchase a set of rods and a crank from an A1, for about $260 shipped. If those parts will make my engine stronger for boost, I believe I will use them. Then if I can swap on a better head, and I can find one cheap enough, I would like to try to use it. I'm sure there can be things done to a head like that to help the motor be a little stronger. Not to mention better cams, v-springs, etc. (I'm sure a little machining couldnt hurt as well!)
So, if I can get all of these parts at a great price, at my leisure, and can make the numbers I would like to see, I dont see why I wouldnt make it happen, you know? Again, I realize that a K24 swap would probably make bigger numbers, etc. Im not out for the bigger numbers. I am out to make the numbers that I want, right? Let's not forget, at THIS point, this is all hypothertical. This theoretical build is still just in my imagination. It's a very possible build, but I have not taken any serious steps towards making it a reality.
Besides, isnt tuning about being "different?" It sounds like if I went with an A3, I WOULD be different! lol

[Popeye]

Well, I just spent some time over at K20.org. It looks like a few A3's with STOCK internals were running 300. Looked like 350 was pushing it. Also saw some A2's with stock internals running anywhere from 400-500, and even saw one that was right at 600. So, with the internals from the A2, with a few other goodies, I think 350 is a VERY attainable goal in the A3.

[Ba82Ep3]

yea but that would also be a waste of money


How could it be a waste by putting the a2/z1 piston/ rod combo crank on the a3 block? The a3 and a2 block are the same casting just the a3 doesn't have oil squirters. Since they said the a2/ z1 internals are forged, it should be fine. The op goal is 350. He can take to 8ish rpms equipped with the a2/ z1 oil pump and block internals. If I'm wrong corrected me. Not just that I rather rebuild my engine then drive someone elses abused engine.

Both are good points. But i think RHCP was referring to aftermarket forged parts... which WOULD be a waste of $$$. OEM forged parts are another story, and both have very different pricetags.

[Ba82Ep3]

The a3 is notorious for shitting the bed at 300whp.not 350

This is a BIG generalization. Im only saying this because most people that make posts like this dont KNOW if the person/people that blew k20a3's were tuned right... or built properly. Those are two of the greatest factors that determine life expectancy of an engine... right there with maintenance and how its DRIVEN. (not calling you out in anyway... just stating fact)

Its true the a3's rods are the weakpoint, and the head is crap (CFM wise), but the engine has potential for someone that likes making the best out of what they have... with minimal modifications.

I mean heck, almost 200whp on a k20a3 with the addition of k20a2 cams and four additional EX rockers (with a KPro tune of course)? Not even a bump in compression? You cant get much cheaper than that...

[Popeye]

That middle paragraph is exactly what I mean. Im not looking to go crazy, which is cool if someone wants to do it. I just see that I already have a good block. (Well, I hope it STAYS that way!) By the time I go to do this, it will probably have a good 200k on it. I figure I'll take it out, clean it up, and if everything looks good, start putting it back together, but with GOOD parts. i.e. A2 rods & crank, a rebuilt better-flowing head, etc. I can buy the parts here and there for the head, then have it ported, if need-be. With some guidance, I'll be able to do the work myself, so labor wont be an issue.
Just ball-parking it here, but it seems like I can "beef-up" the A3 for roughly the same price as a K24 swap. (Maybe a couple bucks more. Again, just a guesstimate.) BUT, with the rebuild, I will KNOW what is in the motor, what kind of shape its in, and what I can and cannot do with it. I wouldnt have that info on the K24. I would just have to assume the K24 is in good shape.

[Blah1219]

Both are good points. But i think RHCP was referring to aftermarket forged parts... which WOULD be a waste of $$$. OEM forged parts are another story, and both have very different pricetags.

Well yeah if spend 1300 on aftermarket pistons/ rods. You might as well go all out.


That middle paragraph is exactly what I mean. Im not looking to go crazy, which is cool if someone wants to do it. I just see that I already have a good block. (Well, I hope it STAYS that way!) By the time I go to do this, it will probably have a good 200k on it. I figure I'll take it out, clean it up, and if everything looks good, start putting it back together, but with GOOD parts. i.e. A2 rods & crank, a rebuilt better-flowing head, etc. I can buy the parts here and there for the head, then have it ported, if need-be. With some guidance, I'll be able to do the work myself, so labor wont be an issue.
Just ball-parking it here, but it seems like I can "beef-up" the A3 for roughly the same price as a K24 swap. (Maybe a couple bucks more. Again, just a guesstimate.) BUT, with the rebuild, I will KNOW what is in the motor, what kind of shape its in, and what I can and cannot do with it. I wouldnt have that info on the K24. I would just have to assume the K24 is in good shape.

Hell yeah!,If you rebuild the engine, its practically brand new. But I don't know about the k24 rod and crank in a k20 block due to the longer stroke. A2/ z1 would be the way to go. Z3 wouldn't be bad either. I picked up my block guts for cheap on k20a.org. toss the a3 head in the garbage. Rebuilding an engine ain't cheap. Parts add up fast!

[Popeye]

Yeah, I MEANT to say K20A2. I guess I brain-farted there.
I know people will probably snicker at wanting to build the A3 up, but I think it'll be fun. Hell, if I am able to buy all of the parts to rebuild the motor a little at a time, I can have a good amount of stuff ready to go. Then all I would need to do is pull it out, get everything machined and ready to go, buy the turbo kit, and put it all together. Then tune & go!
I'm a FAIRLY patient guy, but MAN this is gonna go by slooooooooooow!

[StraightEP3]

Im just going to throw an LS1 in mine.....screw 4 bangers...:mbiggrin:

[mp_02si]

Im just going to throw an LS1 in mine.....screw 4 bangers...:mbiggrin:

possible ep3 civette build in the works Marshal??? :mwink:

[Blah1219]

No way! Keep it a 2.0, throw the pistons away, and drop a 20B-Rew Tri-rotary engine in it.

[talonXracer]

The A3 can be made into an awesome around town kick ass engine, I would have a single lobe vtec killer cam set fabricated that mimics a K10 small cam lobe.