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rsnickell
10-08-2011, 07:33 AM
Long time lurker/reader.. first time poster.

So I have a EP3 with a K20a3 which after much research am disappointed that it is the econo engine. Now I'm looking to make this DD sort of a project car over the next year or so. It has 70k miles on it now. What I've been trying to establish is what to do with the engine.

I could swap it with another engine like the K20z3 or maybe a k24a2 or k20a2. That's a bit of work for my limited experience and would be costly. Yes I know that you have to pay to play.

I could also go the route of FI with either a JRSC or a Turbo kit.

Next I bet you guys would like to know my target performance. I'd like to get the K20a3 up to the 200hp range. So it's not anything too crazy, just more of a powerband than what it has stock for the DD I have.

After more reading, it sounds like installing a turbo is a bit more involved than installing a JRSC. And either one would get me close to the target of 200hp with I/H/E boltons. I'm leaning more toward the JRSC street kit at this point.

I'm looking for some guidance here as to the next step for this stock k20a3.

Do I get all the boltons first and then go after a JRSC? Can I install a JRSC without the boltons and do the boltons afterwards to get further gains from the JRSC?

What do you think?

If you feel that the JRSC is not the best to reach my target, let me know and include maybe a guess for cost in the route you suggest.

Thanks EP hatchers and be easy on me. It's my first post.

junevtec
10-08-2011, 07:41 AM
its exactly what im going with if i can ever find a nice jrsc cheap lol at least 250hp would be my range dd

Blah1219
10-08-2011, 08:15 AM
Kpro would be the first on your list! I would at least pick up an intake and race header before or during the install of the supercharger, so you only have to get it tuned once. You should easily hit 210-220 on that. Are you on a tight budget? You can always get a k24a1 with vtec killer setup (k20a2 cams locked into big lobe (vtec)) that will put you over 200 whp with tons of torque, and you would be all motor with room to boosted in the future. So many choices in the k series world.

rsnickell
10-08-2011, 10:17 AM
Kpro would be the first on your list! I would at least pick up an intake and race header before or during the install of the supercharger, so you only have to get it tuned once. You should easily hit 210-220 on that. Are you on a tight budget? You can always get a k24a1 with vtec killer setup (k20a2 cams locked into big lobe (vtec)) that will put you over 200 whp with tons of torque, and you would be all motor with room to boosted in the future. So many choices in the k series world.

From the description of the JRSC on http://www.supercharger.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=39967 it sounds like they provide a reflash of your ECU. Does that mean you require KPro prior or can go without KPro?

The budget is not necessarily tight, but I wanted to do as much myself as possible. A full engine swap is out of my league personally and paying a shop to do it defeats the experience I want to get learning my own engine.

I've considered getting some k20a2 cams/head/springs/valves to drop into the k20a3 block as I've seen some others successfully do. It didn't sound like you'd "need" to pull the engine out to do that work. I could be wrong there. That I know will require a KPro to manage.

What is attractive about the JRSC onto the k20a3 is that I should be able to do it myself. I was also hoping to avoid having to send my ECU away as this is my DD. A week or more without it being drivable would be tough. A weekend of that while working on the JRSC install would be manageable.

Blah1219
10-08-2011, 12:15 PM
Alright Kpro would be a must at all times. Ive been told that you have good chances to be running lean on the reflash. Also kpro and reflash, you have to send your ecu into Hondata. They reflash the ecu to pretty much a different map, so it's still not tune-able which can cause lean that you can't fix unless you got kpro instead.

You can also buy k-pro off of another member on here or k20a.org, so you won't have to mess with the shipping to Hondata.

rsnickell
10-08-2011, 12:41 PM
You can also buy k-pro off of another member on here or k20a.org, so you won't have to mess with the shipping to Hondata.

Okay so k-pro should be in place prior to the JRSC so you can tune it after the install. You don't want to run untuned for the reason you stated, possibly too lean.

If you buy k-pro used from someone else, do you still have to send away your ECU? It was my impression that k-pro attached to the existing ECU unit.

Back to the topic, k-pro installed first and then you can install the JRSC (and any bolt-ons) and get tuned. I know it would be easier to do the boltons all at the same time to limit the number of times you need tuned, but can you install the JRSC without the other boltons while still aquiring/selecting the boltons I want?

Blah1219
10-08-2011, 02:38 PM
Yes k-pro and reflash attach to the existing ecu, but you can get another k-proed ecu and swap on the ecu's. You would have to study more apon that. I dont have much knowledge about kpro. I stray away from all eletrical bullshit.

Yes you can get the supercharger on your stock bolt on's, but you would be holding back massive ponies. I don't even want to know what power you would get with a stock intake/ exhaust system. It almost sounds like a waste. I would at least get a race header (even if it's just a dc or obx) and an intake.

Shoot I even have a brand new dc ceramic race header in my room. About to put it up for sale for a more expensive race header.

willy_akino
10-09-2011, 03:01 AM
you can get your bolt on first then kpro and fun with it untill you buy your jrsc. kpro is a must and u can push out atleast 210whp depending on your bolt-on. i made 218 on jrsc/dcrh(typeS) magnaflow exhaust and im getting around 23-26mpg. goodluck with your build.

rsnickell
10-09-2011, 09:24 AM
It sounds like for $3k ish (kpro + jrsc) it would get me to the target. The more I look around it seems that I could get a k20a2 for $1600 and have it installed for less and get to my target.

The only thing I don't like is that I wouldn't be doing the work myself.

Tough decisions need to be made. I wish I could get away with not having to get kpro for the street jrsc. It seems like you shouldn't do anything to the k series without it.

willy_akino
10-09-2011, 02:34 PM
yeh it shouldn't be more than 3,000$ for jrsc+kpro+ tune. If your not in a rush take your time looking for kpro, i found mines for 700$ I remember some a few selling for 800-900$ off k20a.org and jrsc should be around 1800 depending on the seller. Take your time.

JaydmEp3
10-10-2011, 11:48 PM
shoot good info. never really thot about power/motor wise gains for my ep. as soon as I'm done with exterior stuff I'll jump into tht section. hmm turbo or jrsc? dnt kno yet

but nonetheless good luck with ur build man. keep us posted.

T_Virus
10-11-2011, 12:22 PM
you'll still be disappointed with the k20a3 and will become more power hungry. Do it right the first time by swapping and that way your money will be worth it. There should be some ephatch members in ohio that can help you swap the motor.

willy_akino
10-12-2011, 02:05 AM
you'll still be disappointed with the k20a3 and will become more power hungry. Do it right the first time by swapping and that way your money will be worth it. There should be some ephatch members in ohio that can help you swap the motor.

yup a k24a1 tuned has more pull than my a3 jrsc but im not really power hungry, if was i would buy a Evo or Sti

T_Virus
10-12-2011, 09:05 PM
yup a k24a1 tuned has more pull than my a3 jrsc but im not really power hungry, if was i would buy a Evo or Sti

LoL...Willy, I don't think you'll go Evo or STI anytime soon..I think the next set up you'll go for after your A3 JRSC will either be a Vtec Killer or K24a1 or K24A2 with that JRSC...hehehe.

rsnickell
10-15-2011, 06:35 PM
you'll still be disappointed with the k20a3 and will become more power hungry. Do it right the first time by swapping and that way your money will be worth it. There should be some ephatch members in ohio that can help you swap the motor.

I really want to learn as I go and get satisfaction that way. Getting more power is just a bonus. A full swap may cost about the same but I can't do that myself and I can't be down my DD for long.

It sounds like I will be starting out with standard boltons while I try to get a fair price on a kpro. I will also need to find a tuner in Columbus since the only one listed in Ohio is 2 hrs away from me.

rsnickell
10-15-2011, 06:41 PM
Has anyone used that power manage tool spliced into the ecu injector wires that comes with the jrsc street kit? It sounds like a blind setup without kpro. Just curious if I could go the power manage route while finding a kpro.

andyman97
10-15-2011, 07:27 PM
I really want to learn as I go and get satisfaction that way. Getting more power is just a bonus. A full swap may cost about the same but I can't do that myself and I can't be down my DD for long.

It sounds like I will be starting out with standard boltons while I try to get a fair price on a kpro. I will also need to find a tuner in Columbus since the only one listed in Ohio is 2 hrs away from me.

Why can't you do a swap yourself? It's probably easier than supercharging is. You realize with a k24a2 and kpro, you should be able to make 220 easy. That's the route I'd go, it's not as big a job as you think.

andyman97
10-15-2011, 07:31 PM
Has anyone used that power manage tool spliced into the ecu injector wires that comes with the jrsc street kit? It sounds like a blind setup without kpro. Just curious if I could go the power manage route while finding a kpro.

If you're running kpro, you don't need any other electronics to control the engine. Kpro is a full standalone that lets you completely adjust fuel and ignition maps at any load breakpoint and rpm. What you're describing sounds like a piggyback, most tuners won't deal with them, especially since kpro is so readily available and easier to tune, not to mention there's no way to adjust ignition timing.

rsnickell
10-15-2011, 07:46 PM
If you're running kpro, you don't need any other electronics to control the engine. Kpro is a full standalone that lets you completely adjust fuel and ignition maps at any load breakpoint and rpm. What you're describing sounds like a piggyback, most tuners won't deal with them, especially since kpro is so readily available and easier to tune, not to mention there's no way to adjust ignition timing.

What I'm referring to does indeed sound like a piggy back. Here's their description:


Fuel Management is provided by Jackson Racing's Powercard with digital tuning technology. This simple but effective plug-and-play system takes full control of the fuel injector only under boost.

http://www.supercharger.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=39967

That would imply you "don't" need kpro, but I know everyone suggests kpro first and foremost. I'm just wondering if I can use the Powercard while still hunting down a kpro.

rsnickell
10-15-2011, 07:49 PM
Why can't you do a swap yourself? It's probably easier than supercharging is. You realize with a k24a2 and kpro, you should be able to make 220 easy. That's the route I'd go, it's not as big a job as you think.

You think a first time swapper can do it all in under 2 days (a weekend) by himself or with one other neighbor/friend? I know that the kpro would require me to send out my ecu, which I don't have the luxury of doing with this DD. That downtime is why I was looking at the supercharger route as it seemed less difficult and shorter downtime than say a turbo or a full swap.

02TWSI
10-15-2011, 08:00 PM
yup a k24a1 tuned has more pull than my a3 jrsc but im not really power hungry, if was i would buy a Evo or Sti



Like me....tehe

rsnickell
10-15-2011, 08:16 PM
Fwiw, I did find a tuner/kpro dealer near Columbus, so that shouldn't be much of an issue for my "downtime" concern. Gonna call them on Monday to find out more about them.

Ba82Ep3
10-15-2011, 11:23 PM
Honestly youre in the right place, and doing the right things. Read as much as you can, ask as many questions as you can, and pop that hood informed.

There are plenty of peeps here that have swapped and boosted (myself included), and most are more than willing to lend a hand or answer a call.

:thumbu:

andyman97
10-16-2011, 02:22 AM
I see no reason it would take 2 people more than 2 days to do a swap, it's all bolt in and plug and play. The only additional parts you need are kpro and a crv mount bracket.

As for kpro, you don't have to wait, just find one used and it plugs right into the harness. There's nothing else to do but get it tuned. If you don't want a used one, pick up another used, unmodified oem k series ecu and send it out so you don't have to modify your own if you're that worried about it.

Ba82Ep3
10-16-2011, 09:37 AM
You can actually run a stock k24a1 on a NON KPro'd ECU with 310 injectors (OEM RSX-S) and NO bolton mods SAFELY... if you want an inexpensive bump in power. ; )

rsnickell
10-16-2011, 10:46 AM
You can actually run a stock k24a1 on a NON KPro'd ECU with 310 injectors (OEM RSX-S) and NO bolton mods SAFELY... if you want an inexpensive bump in power. ; )

that's good to know, but it appears the k24a1 only provide more torque with no HP gains from my k20a3.

Ba82Ep3
10-16-2011, 11:10 AM
Oh no. Trust me. Youll have hp gains as well. There is no replacement for displacement! Once you get KPro, start adding bolt ons, and get a tune, youll be at the 200whp mark with more tq than your tires can stand. The TQ for a DD is what makes the k24a1 so great... and it works so well with the longer gears of the k20a3 transmission.

rsnickell
10-16-2011, 01:58 PM
Oh no. Trust me. Youll have hp gains as well. There is no replacement for displacement! Once you get KPro, start adding bolt ons, and get a tune, youll be at the 200whp mark with more tq than your tires can stand. The TQ for a DD is what makes the k24a1 so great... and it works so well with the longer gears of the k20a3 transmission.

So you're saying that the extra displacement will allow your boltons and tune to increase the base hp from 160 to 200? I thought I might be able to get the k20a3 up to say 180+ using boltons and a proper tune. Seems more attractive that if I'm going to do a swap (and I'm not saying that I am) that I would go for a K20A2 or K24A2. Both start out at the 200 hp mark.

Ba82Ep3
10-16-2011, 02:34 PM
Yes and yes. BUT a k24a1 can be had for FAR less than either of its a2 brethren...

andyman97
10-16-2011, 03:31 PM
Personally, I'd go for the k24a2.

rsnickell
10-16-2011, 06:48 PM
Yes and yes. BUT a k24a1 can be had for FAR less than either of its a2 brethren...

Yeah I see your point. I found a few k24a1's for under $800 locally thanks to car-part.com. The best I can find of the k20a2/k24a2 engines is around $1,600.

In an effort to keep this on topic for this SuperCharger forum section, would any boltons I get for the k20a3 still have correct fitment on a k24a1 should I decide abandon the JRSC route and instead go swap? That would give me some lead time to make my final decision.

Using the existing ECU on the k24a1 is very attractive alternative to ponying up the kpro + jrsc all at once.

Ba82Ep3
10-16-2011, 10:46 PM
Think of the k24a1 as the big brother of the k20a3. Same 2 lobe cam setup, same engine harness connections, same accessories (water pump crank pulley etc) and the intake and exhaust manifolds are interchangeable. The JRSC manifold is designed for this type of head, and actually uses an adapter plate for any of the k series heads that have the water port as part of the intake manifold (where the upper rad hose attaches to the engine, k24a2/k20z3).

Your only real concern during bolt on purchase would be a race header. Because the k24a1 is essentially a stroked and bored k20a3, the block deck height is 19mm taller. This raises the head the same amount. If you bought a race header while you still have a k20, and you had intent to run a k24, you might wanna invest in a k24 header so you can have the chassis clearance... and not have to buy a header twice.

I have worked on a few k24a1's with graduating setups like this... a friend even running the k20a3 ECU with 310's and full I/RH/E didnt lean out his setup. As a matter of fact, he was real close to stoich and the setup ran really well. Adding KPro and some street tuning only found him maybe 10whp and 4wtq more. If i remember correctly... he dyno'd 190whp 180wtq.

Odds are you could safely use the JRSC Street Kit w/Power Card with the stock k20a3 ECU/310cc injectors on a simple bolt on k24a1. I know the power card runs rich, and even though the intake header and exhaust (I/H/E) would lean out the setup... you would likely be safe. Worse case you just leave your catalytic converter on to add some exhaust restriction to help richen it back up some.

That would likely put you in the 220whp 195wtq region... safely... and on the cheap. Buy KPro later on, and open up a world of new options for yourself. If i knew what i know now, and had to do it again... thats the route i would take.

Blah1219
10-17-2011, 01:33 PM
Think of the k24a1 as the big brother of the k20a3. Same 2 lobe cam setup, same engine harness connections, same accessories (water pump crank pulley etc) and the intake and exhaust manifolds are interchangeable. The JRSC manifold is designed for this type of head, and actually uses an adapter plate for any of the k series heads that have the water port as part of the intake manifold (where the upper rad hose attaches to the engine, k24a2/k20z3).

Your only real concern during bolt on purchase would be a race header. Because the k24a1 is essentially a stroked and bored k20a3, the block deck height is 19mm taller. This raises the head the same amount. If you bought a race header while you still have a k20, and you had intent to run a k24, you might wanna invest in a k24 header so you can have the chassis clearance... and not have to buy a header twice.

I have worked on a few k24a1's with graduating setups like this... a friend even running the k20a3 ECU with 310's and full I/RH/E didnt lean out his setup. As a matter of fact, he was real close to stoich and the setup ran really well. Adding KPro and some street tuning only found him maybe 10whp and 4wtq more. If i remember correctly... he dyno'd 190whp 180wtq.

Odds are you could safely use the JRSC Street Kit w/Power Card with the stock k20a3 ECU/310cc injectors on a simple bolt on k24a1. I know the power card runs rich, and even though the intake header and exhaust (I/H/E) would lean out the setup... you would likely be safe. Worse case you just leave your catalytic converter on to add some exhaust restriction to help richen it back up some.

That would likely put you in the 220whp 195wtq region... safely... and on the cheap. Buy KPro later on, and open up a world of new options for yourself. If i knew what i know now, and had to do it again... thats the route i would take.

Great article. I just have to add that the k24a1 head is the best flowing head from the factory. You also have the option of doing vtec killer by using the k20a2 cams and k20a3 exhaust rockers, and you'll put out a strong 210.

rsnickell
10-20-2011, 06:45 PM
There is a lot of great information here. I have a tough decision on how to do my build.

Your description of going with a k24a1 swap using the k20a3 ecu with 310 injectors eventually hitting 190hp sounds interesting, but required kpro just to get there.

I think I may go the route of getting the i/h/e for the k20a3. Then followup with a kpro. At that point I can decide to go jrsc or k24a1 swap.

Thanks again for all the great info and feedback.

junevtec
10-20-2011, 07:58 PM
i think k20a3 jrsc would be fine im gonna go this route whenever i find a cheap jrsc unit

willy_akino
10-21-2011, 01:01 AM
LoL...Willy, I don't think you'll go Evo or STI anytime soon..I think the next set up you'll go for after your A3 JRSC will either be a Vtec Killer or K24a1 or K24A2 with that JRSC...hehehe.

i've driven a k20a2/k24 with and without the jrsc and honestly its a load of fun but its not for me. I'm done modding my engine the next thing i wanna do is wheels/coilovers/brakes and jdm front and I know my next car is a s2000(i know its played out) but I've always wanted one.

gtecd20
02-25-2012, 09:56 PM
You know I was always thinking what to do as far as either swap or sc and I found a great unit with a power card and boy let me tell u It was a days work installing it and I'm so happy it's not the fastest thing but I can beat g35 newer si and keep up with cars that normally are out of my league I am running a power card saving up to get the kpro but you won't be disappointed any way u go
Either way I recommend upgrading your clutch to Handel the extra torque
Good luck with your build

EP3Lov3
03-29-2012, 12:10 PM
Long time lurker/reader.. first time poster.

So I have a EP3 with a K20a3 which after much research am disappointed that it is the econo engine. Now I'm looking to make this DD sort of a project car over the next year or so. It has 70k miles on it now. What I've been trying to establish is what to do with the engine.

I could swap it with another engine like the K20z3 or maybe a k24a2 or k20a2. That's a bit of work for my limited experience and would be costly. Yes I know that you have to pay to play.

I could also go the route of FI with either a JRSC or a Turbo kit.

Next I bet you guys would like to know my target performance. I'd like to get the K20a3 up to the 200hp range. So it's not anything too crazy, just more of a powerband than what it has stock for the DD I have.

After more reading, it sounds like installing a turbo is a bit more involved than installing a JRSC. And either one would get me close to the target of 200hp with I/H/E boltons. I'm leaning more toward the JRSC street kit at this point.

I'm looking for some guidance here as to the next step for this stock k20a3.

Do I get all the boltons first and then go after a JRSC? Can I install a JRSC without the boltons and do the boltons afterwards to get further gains from the JRSC?

What do you think?

If you feel that the JRSC is not the best to reach my target, let me know and include maybe a guess for cost in the route you suggest.

Thanks EP hatchers and be easy on me. It's my first post.
I'm in the same boat as you =)

Nickle n Dimin
03-29-2012, 12:20 PM
you'll still be disappointed with the k20a3 and will become more power hungry. Do it right the first time by swapping and that way your money will be worth it. There should be some ephatch members in ohio that can help you swap the motor.
if i could go back i would def do the swap gives you about the same power and more room for improvement later on down the line

maksym
09-05-2013, 01:58 PM
Back from the dead....
Would the K20A3 ECU work fine with K24A1 and 310 injectors if the K20A3 ECU is reflashed? Pros? Cons?

tlikethedrink
09-05-2013, 07:35 PM
Interesting set up ^^^

klik
09-06-2013, 11:12 AM
I used to have jrsc street on my k20a3 and it was cool. Sold the jrsc and bought a kpro for 600 used. And i found a 2007 k24a2 with 30k miles online for 1600 shipped. And a rsx s 6 speed tranny for 500. Im not swap yet since im too busy to do the work. But you can find good deals out there just keep looking around.

wcmbrk
09-06-2013, 06:53 PM
if you don't want to give up on ur a3...u can vtec kill your a3...I did it and yea some people don't like it...but I've driven it for 30k miles now and have had zero issues with reliability...how's ur smog over there? If not as bad as cali you can do it...i'm at 191 with a shorty header...race header should put me over 200...and I sourced all the parts online through forum...probably less than 1000...just wanted to be different is all...i'll probably get flamed here for saying I <3 vtec killer...but it's worked well for me...so that's my $0.02.

maksym
09-10-2013, 05:03 PM
Back from the dead....
Would the K20A3 ECU work fine with K24A1 and 310 injectors if the K20A3 ECU is reflashed? Pros? Cons?

Anybody on this one?

Ba82Ep3
09-11-2013, 02:56 PM
Reflashed how?

maksym
09-11-2013, 02:58 PM
Hondata Reflash

Ba82Ep3
09-11-2013, 03:00 PM
This will largely depend on your bolt ons. I would either run a cat, or a stock airbox for AFR safety.

maksym
09-11-2013, 03:04 PM
Will it lean it out too much, is that what you are saying, even more than if the k20a3 ECU wasnt reflashed?