Why is kpro so fawking expensive???

[StockTexasEP3]

Any route you want to go with ep3 requires dropping 800 - 1000 on KPRO. Turbo? 1 grand please? K24 swap? That'll be an extra g?

I'm sure a lot of R and D went into the development of KPRO but it's essentially just a circuit board sautered (sp?) onto the existing ecu.. IMO that is not worth one thousand dollars. It seems there are no alternatives either...

I mean I'm also a big budget guy anyway.. Don't care about name brands. With my sway bar I got a knock off eBay one for 35% a progress, a used SRI, I'd be down with race land coilovdrs. Basically I give cheap brands th benefit of the doubt. So why isn't ther an equivalent for KPRO. It's just too expensive for my budget, and I don't want to do a reflect that's just designed for a CAI. Why people why? I don't mean to offend anyway or be a noob just something that has been bothering me and my miserly ways...

[whatsvtec]

It's a fully tune-able standalone engine management system that can adjust, monitor, set and override all sorts of parameters and settings in your engine and beyond. It's most definitely worth it. Look to see how much AEM EMS is for the 2g/evo platforms. You're running abt the same price.

[StockTexasEP3]

Right...I kno that AEM is running around 1200.. Bu why isnt there a 500 dollar equivalent.. The Megan to Mugen... QPrah to Kpro

[fEPst3r]

would you really trust some unknown brand to manage your ecu?

[02TWSI]

It's a fully tune-able standalone engine management system that can adjust, monitor, set and override all sorts of parameters and settings in your engine and beyond. It's most definitely worth it. Look to see how much AEM EMS is for the 2g/evo platforms. You're running abt the same price.



Luckily enough most evo tuner these days use a tactrix cable and evoscan. Zero cost to tune other than the going rate of the facility.

I wonder why you can't tune through the obd port, ecu isn't advanced enough maybe?

[superchargedk20]

Sure there is. Get urself one of those fancy eBay superchips. Guarenteed 20 hp gain!!! Kpro is well worth every penny.

[hyu]

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/4e6/a06/42e/resized/multicolor-meme-generator-why-so-many-colors-because-race-car-bccfba.jpg?1310403273.jpg

[StockTexasEP3]

Sure there is. Get urself one of those fancy eBay superchips. Guarenteed 20 hp gain!!! Kpro is well worth every penny.

Lol. The thing is, ya KPRO is worth it, because theres no alternative. If you want to turbo your car or swap, and make legit numbers, you HAVE to have it. If the only way im getting laid is by spending a lot of money wining and dining a woman, I'm gonna do it because it beats jacking off. But if I can bed the same woman, by taking her to apple bees, and get the same blow job, you better believe I'm going to apple bees.

[StockTexasEP3]

Luckily enough most evo tuner these days use a tactrix cable and evoscan. Zero cost to tune other than the going rate of the facility.

I wonder why you can't tune through the obd port, ecu isn't advanced enough maybe?

What is this?

[02TWSI]

What is this?


Something EP3 can't use. Kpro is full of win, it can even help you out with gas mileage

[gizmo_75]

sometimes you just gotta "PAY" to "PLAY" ...just sayin..lol

[civsirmt]

if kpro is the only thing you do besides exhaust and intake its still worth it....period. just get the credit card out and do it you will not regret it.

[doubledouble]

I've wondered the same. In the subby world COBB makes an accessport, which you can find used for about $250, or you can always go open source. .

[Ba82Ep3]

You can use e manage if you turbo. There is a power card if you SC. Its not the best way to tune your boosted setup... but you can avoid the initial KPro purchase.

I've had a $2,000 blowjob. Aint shit on EBAY that can touch it...

[RHCP0801]

all people do is complain about this, gotta pay to play....end of story

[Tnhatch03]

Kpro is more of a piggy back, acting like a standalone, than it is a standalone.

but it is worth it and that is why the price is high. Hond@t@ knows it! Their customer service SUCKS, but the product is AMAZING!

[StockTexasEP3]

The pay to play adage is true sometimes, but it's also misleading. Yes you have to spend money to get stuff for your car - but the question is how much are you going to spend.

Progress sway bar - 200ish. eBay copy - 80. For the most part, the 2 bars work the same.

eBay CAI + k and n filter - 90. AEM CAI - 300. There is not a 210 dollar difference that's warranted IMO.

Same goes for body pieces, "mugen replica," etc. Often times you are paying for the name.

This is just my DD that I want to make better, not some time attack monster.

The whole reason I got into DIY is seeing how much people overcharge for car stuff. I saved 470 bucks replacing my ELD vs. the 500 they were trying to charge for a new fuse box. Another shop wanted 700 dollars for a new catalytic converter, when you can find them much cheaper and DIY.

This whole scene is based on feeling that you can do it better and cheaper that someone else. As a casual observer, I think hondata has a corner on the market. People "have" to buy it so they can charge high prices. And as I've read in this thread no one has given me a good reason why it costs what it does. I was legitimately hoping for one. Like it costs a lot to develop the software or it's a conplicated process. But it looks like my suspicions are confirmed - shits overpriced. (I'm kind of in a bad mood so pardon the ranting)

[1fasthb]

this is the only reason why im not turbo sadly kpro is so over rated and over price'd and no one else makes anything half way decent for are cars cheap so thats why they charge what they do, i mean dsm guys have dsm link and is like 400-500 and seen alote of my friends making 600hp easy and safely, and srt-4 use with some thing called Diablosport Preadator and thats only 3/400 bucks and ppl make great power using that, just sucks for us honda ppl it seems :(

[Ba82Ep3]

And as I've read in this thread no one has given me a good reason why it costs what it does. I was legitimately hoping for one. Like it costs a lot to develop the software or it's a complicated process. But it looks like my suspicions are confirmed - shits overpriced.

OK. Heres one. Can you tune a car with KPro? Better yet, do you know how to use KPro at all? Im not trying to insult you... but you are passing judgement on something you apparently have never owned... much less mastered.

The reason you arent seeing in depth reasons as to why KPro is worth it, is because the lingo that would be used would likely look like Chinese to you. Its a waste of time to type a wordy and seemingly 'im smarter than you' response 'why'.... when you can go to the Hondata forum for yourself... read for 6 hours... and still feel like you dont know shit.

KPro IS worth it... if you plan on modifying your k series engine the 'right' way. Try it. Master it. THEN give us your opinion on its worth...

:thumbu:

[BeaterEP]

Because Hondata ran COBB out of the Honda tuning market with legal threats? :mwink:

[superchargedk20]

Lol. The thing is, ya KPRO is worth it, because theres no alternative. If you want to turbo your car or swap, and make legit numbers, you HAVE to have it. If the only way im getting laid is by spending a lot of money wining and dining a woman, I'm gonna do it because it beats jacking off. But if I can bed the same woman, by taking her to apple bees, and get the same blow job, you better believe I'm going to apple bees.

but there are alternatives... u can get an aem stand alone which costs more than kpro and youll fail emissions every single time with it. I beleive apex makes a basic ecu replacement thats garbage though. You can get a JRSC power card if u go that route. Theres guardian and E manage for the turbo guys . No matter how you look at it kpro is the best and thats why its worth the price. Its not that its the only alternative and thats why it costs so much. Its pretty much all the posibilites and discretion that kpro gives you. You have so much control over your car its ridiculous. I honestly dont think there is another management system out there that gives u so much control over your car without having to replace ur factory ecu.
fuel timing adjustment, launch control, vtec activation, CEL reader, knock sensor , Nitros oxide activation, immobilizer activation, fuel cut off, datalogging..

I mean these are all basic things that im just thinking off from the top of my head. IMO Kpro is worht well more than what your paying for it. If people dont agree then they shouldnt be modding k series engines

[Blah1219]

You get what you pay for. I stay away from ebay, but they can have deals out there.

[EPsode3]

well if you're goin with an k20a2/k20z1 and possibly the k20z3 swap you could run a PRD/PRC (civic/rsx type r) ECU while you save for kpro, there's also a 250 bucks kswap ecu on k20a.org...but you'll never pass emissions, just something to run your swap...i'm k20a2 swapped running a PRD which i ganked from a buddy until i save up enough for kpro since he's already gotten it, trust me...even though i haven't personally messed with or used it much...just swapping my ecu for his out and letting me borrow my buddy's kpro for a couple of pulls around the corner...made me wish i waited and got kpro with my swap, i dunno but being swapped with no kpro is like having a 10 incher and can't get a full hardy...lol

[1fasthb]

well if you're goin with an k20a2/k20z1 and possibly the k20z3 swap you could run a PRD/PRC (civic/rsx type r) ECU while you save for kpro, there's also a 250 bucks kswap ecu on k20a.org...but you'll never pass emissions, just something to run your swap...i'm k20a2 swapped running a PRD which i ganked from a buddy until i save up enough for kpro since he's already gotten it, trust me...even though i haven't personally messed with or used it much...just swapping my ecu for his out and letting me borrow my buddy's kpro for a couple of pulls around the corner...made me wish i waited and got kpro with my swap, i dunno but being swapped with no kpro is like having a 10 incher and can't get a full hardy...lol


who has emissions still? lol my states around me and were i live havent had that junk for years

[RHCP0801]

who has emissions still? lol my states around me and were i live havent had that junk for years

what kind of question is that?

[RotaryGreg]

for some reason i never thought of kpro as expensive in the first place.

The only cheap ECU with capabilities like KPRO i have ever seen was a mega squirt, but thats an entire build it yourself replacement. not for the average DIYer.

plus, it doesnt just plug into your stock harness and run off all the stock sensors. You arent keeping your immobilizer either with one of those. plus, your car will be down for weeks and needing tows all over town to get a tune. not to mention the initial problems you'll have setting it up.

I did some lapping with an rx7 race team years ago who had been running a megasquirt for years without any luck. YEARS!!!
when they finally figured out all the problems (various sensors not agreeing with the ECU) the car was so fast they needed to upgrade their brakes. A friend of mine had built them a mean ass half-bridge engine and they wasted years running around tracks using less than half its potential because they cheaped out on the ECU.

I agree with what you say about DIY to save money. but there are things out there that are worth spending big bucks on. this is one of those things.

[civsirmt]

if paying for kpro bothers u that much then maybe u should get b series car. or come out with ur own engine control system,sorry i dont mean to sound rude but i had kpro in my ep for 5 years and been through many different mods it still the best thing i did.

[TigerBallZ]

Here is a solution. Develop your own standalone and sell it for whatever price you want. Until then, maybe convince everyone not to buy K-Pro for the price they set and hope for the price to drop.
It probably takes less than $0.10 to make a cell phone charger. Why do they charge $15 $20+ for it, because people will buy it for that price. You can't expect handouts for any product on the market.

[gtolio]

For all that it allows you to do, $1k is really not that expensive in the grand scheme of things... and please don't buy racelands. lol

Brand name parts are expensive because actual research goes into developing them. Research costs money. Imitation parts are cheap because they involve no research, but only copy other parts or settle on lower standards of performance. Copying parts is easy and cheap.

Your ecu is probably the most complicated piece of equipment in your car. Therefore it takes more research to manipulate. More research more cost.

Sometimes you can get the same outcome from an imitation part as the original, sometimes you can't. I wouldn't chance it on the ecu. Building a car takes time. Do it right the first time and you'll be happier in the end.

[StockTexasEP3]

Here is a solution. Develop your own standalone and sell it for whatever price you want. Until then, maybe convince everyone not to buy K-Pro for the price they set and hope for the price to drop.
It probably takes less than $0.10 to make a cell phone charger. Why do they charge $15 $20+ for it, because people will buy it for that price. You can't expect handouts for any product on the market.

BRB developing my own standalone ...

Haha

I'm glad I posed this question.. It seems that A) KPRO is bad ass and worth it and B) it's overpriced and no one is in the market to challenge it. I kno if there's no alternative I'll end up getting KPRO eventually but I'd also be a customer for a ecu piggyback that costs 500. See I'm not a race car driver - never will. I just want a device that mods the ecu in ways favorable to make a quicker ep3. I don't need all this crazy shit tha I don't even know what to do with. On the other hand I don't want to get a reflahs that can't be changed and that's designed for mods I don't have. Really flash pro is what I need but its not for ep3's arggghhh

Reall though someone needs to make an open source like deal for tuning k serioes engines. I kno there's one for b series. Until then hondata will keep pimping the system. Occupy Hondata!!!!

[BeaterEP]

LOL at that last bit :mbiggrin:

[Silvercard]

Monopoly!

[BlownSi05]

Any route you want to go with ep3 requires dropping 800 - 1000 on KPRO. Turbo? 1 grand please? K24 swap? That'll be an extra g?

I'm sure a lot of R and D went into the development of KPRO but it's essentially just a circuit board sautered (sp?) onto the existing ecu.. IMO that is not worth one thousand dollars. It seems there are no alternatives either...

I mean I'm also a big budget guy anyway.. Don't care about name brands. With my sway bar I got a knock off eBay one for 35% a progress, a used SRI, I'd be down with race land coilovdrs. Basically I give cheap brands th benefit of the doubt. So why isn't ther an equivalent for KPRO. It's just too expensive for my budget, and I don't want to do a reflect that's just designed for a CAI. Why people why? I don't mean to offend anyway or be a noob just something that has been bothering me and my miserly ways...

I will say this again about people complaining about the price of K-Pro; go price AEM EMS, Autronic, ViPEC, or any of the other "true" stand alone engine management systems, and you will realize what a great deal K-Pro is. K-Pro is not a "true" stand alone, yet it gives you MOST of the tuning ability and feature of one of the more expensive stand-alone units. Not trying to sound like an arse, just wanting to bring some perspective to this.

[PRODIUS]

Amen

[AKEP]

holy fuck didn't i just drop the bomb on this like 3 weeks ago?
http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?66328-ktunded-llc-swapecu-k
check out the last posts...i mean take it in as some info versus an argument on open source tuning...

[dj addicted]

what cracks me up is you keep comparing KPro vs generic crap you buy on ebay. It is really easy for a company to copy a Cold Air Intake or a sway bar, but when it comes to electronics there is a lot more involved. Hell, you spent 90 bucks on a CAI, when I could have made you one for 20. Simple dryer hose and a piece of pantyhose and a rubber band. Serves the exact same function.

Also, legality reasons is why nobody would copy KPro. You copy a CAI, all you need to do is change the bend in a pipe just slightly, and boom it is a completely different system. It is a lot different when it comes to electronics and tuning. For B-series VAFCs were the way to go for many years, yet there were no copies of those floating around. I also would not trust generic electronics with my car. Generic pipes and bars are one thing, but electronics are another.

[AKEP]

The pay to play adage is true sometimes, but it's also misleading. Yes you have to spend money to get stuff for your car - but the question is how much are you going to spend.

Progress sway bar - 200ish. eBay copy - 80. For the most part, the 2 bars work the same.

eBay CAI + k and n filter - 90. AEM CAI - 300. There is not a 210 dollar difference that's warranted IMO.

Same goes for body pieces, "mugen replica," etc. Often times you are paying for the name.

This is just my DD that I want to make better, not some time attack monster.

The whole reason I got into DIY is seeing how much people overcharge for car stuff. I saved 470 bucks replacing my ELD vs. the 500 they were trying to charge for a new fuse box. Another shop wanted 700 dollars for a new catalytic converter, when you can find them much cheaper and DIY.

This whole scene is based on feeling that you can do it better and cheaper that someone else. As a casual observer, I think hondata has a corner on the market. People "have" to buy it so they can charge high prices. And as I've read in this thread no one has given me a good reason why it costs what it does. I was legitimately hoping for one. Like it costs a lot to develop the software or it's a conplicated process. But it looks like my suspicions are confirmed - shits overpriced. (I'm kind of in a bad mood so pardon the ranting)


this is the only reason why im not turbo sadly kpro is so over rated and over price'd and no one else makes anything half way decent for are cars cheap so thats why they charge what they do, i mean dsm guys have dsm link and is like 400-500 and seen alote of my friends making 600hp easy and safely, and srt-4 use with some thing called Diablosport Preadator and thats only 3/400 bucks and ppl make great power using that, just sucks for us honda ppl it seems :(


but there are alternatives... u can get an aem stand alone which costs more than kpro and youll fail emissions every single time with it. I beleive apex makes a basic ecu replacement thats garbage though. You can get a JRSC power card if u go that route. Theres guardian and E manage for the turbo guys . No matter how you look at it kpro is the best and thats why its worth the price. Its not that its the only alternative and thats why it costs so much. Its pretty much all the posibilites and discretion that kpro gives you. You have so much control over your car its ridiculous. I honestly dont think there is another management system out there that gives u so much control over your car without having to replace ur factory ecu.
fuel timing adjustment, launch control, vtec activation, CEL reader, knock sensor , Nitros oxide activation, immobilizer activation, fuel cut off, datalogging..

I mean these are all basic things that im just thinking off from the top of my head. IMO Kpro is worht well more than what your paying for it. If people dont agree then they shouldnt be modding k series engines


For all that it allows you to do, $1k is really not that expensive in the grand scheme of things... and please don't buy racelands. lol

Brand name parts are expensive because actual research goes into developing them. Research costs money. Imitation parts are cheap because they involve no research, but only copy other parts or settle on lower standards of performance. Copying parts is easy and cheap.

Your ecu is probably the most complicated piece of equipment in your car. Therefore it takes more research to manipulate. More research more cost.

Sometimes you can get the same outcome from an imitation part as the original, sometimes you can't. I wouldn't chance it on the ecu. Building a car takes time. Do it right the first time and you'll be happier in the end.


BRB developing my own standalone ...

Haha

I'm glad I posed this question.. It seems that A) KPRO is bad ass and worth it and B) it's overpriced and no one is in the market to challenge it. I kno if there's no alternative I'll end up getting KPRO eventually but I'd also be a customer for a ecu piggyback that costs 500. See I'm not a race car driver - never will. I just want a device that mods the ecu in ways favorable to make a quicker ep3. I don't need all this crazy shit tha I don't even know what to do with. On the other hand I don't want to get a reflahs that can't be changed and that's designed for mods I don't have. Really flash pro is what I need but its not for ep3's arggghhh

Reall though someone needs to make an open source like deal for tuning k serioes engines. I kno there's one for b series. Until then hondata will keep pimping the system. Occupy Hondata!!!!

its all right here. if you want a detailed spiel on how awesome kpro is for us, then i can give it to you. it has options and abilities of much much higher quality and degree than any other option you would care to consider. its the next closest thing to a standalone that you can get without replacing the ecu. some states its not an option to run an ecu that doesn't belong to the car or engine. some have to pass smog. some don't want to slice up a harness to attach it pin by pin to a universal ecu. some standalones have options that don't even apply to us. Kpro is developed in house by hondata. they figured out the pinout standard that honda uses to attach their proprietary daughter board to control all the parameters that it does. the cool thing is, that it doesn't rely on intercepting data and manipulating the relay back to the stock ecu. YOU CHANGE THE ECU. you make the ecu do what you want it to do. theres no guessing if you added enough fuel to lie to the ecu. or fudging boost pressure because the ecu wont allow more than 10psi. you tell the ecu "bitch, i have a hondata MAP sensor, and you're going to use it" - and it does.

but damn, you need that extra 10hp from your bolt ons? and pass smog? and get better gas mileage? and make sure your not running lean? and you need to datalog so you can go back and make changes without relying on a wideband that you just spent $300 on? plus install? damn is that wideband overkill for a non turbo honda? are my injectors capable of handling this much fuel? how do i know? can i even tune my ignition timing with the aem piggyback? isn't that where all the power is after i think i found out where the best AFR's are? what if i could build my own cam angle map to get more power from boost? does that affect my mpg? do i even know what im doing? wtf is going on?

kpro does it all. flashpro doesn't even do it as good. yes, its cheaper. yes, its just a USB DLC made by hondata. but you get what you pay for. the flashpro doesn't have as flexible system as kpro. not from my experience. its almost as good, but not quite.

you could get away with a VAFC for fuel tuning. but its not going to get you all the power you could get w/ kpro. hands down. the money is best spent on kpro no matter the option. unless someone copies the daughter board and can get it mass produced and installed overnight and shipped back to the customer in 2 days, you have a lot to look up to. read read read. its been out for like 8 years now. 8 years of kpro. 8 years of people buying and never looking back. 8 years of satisfied hondata kpro ownership. i've never heard of anyone dropping kpro IN FAVOR of another stand alone system for the ep3/rsx chassis.

but like twice stated already. you gotta pay to play. if you can't afford kseries, if you can't afford turbo, supercharger, tires, clutches, kpro, you aren't going to get a hand out on anything. mighte ven be time to downgrade to something cheaper. if you can't pay, you can't play. if it was affordable for everyone, we'd all be doing it arleady. the game isn't new, and it sure as hell hasn't changed in the past 10 years, besides having new platforms to work with. big power and big gains comes from big money. being a cheap ass never got anyone far. and thats a lot coming from someone who pushes for the ebay turbo kit. its by far not cheap at the end of it all either. im about 2 grand into it. and many, many hours. thank god i have kpro to tune it too. on a motor that kpro isn't even offered on without a separate kpro ecu and jumper harness.

wait, motor swap, turbo, nothing stock but the wiring harness (not entirely either) and ignition system? and you can't even install kpro for under a grand in the tsx, where i pulled my motor from? boosting over the stock map sensor limit? thank god i have kpro for the ep3. not even possible with a piggyback. power card, guardian? maybe, if you don't mind those lying to your ecu to run it "right".

khavefun.

[gtolio]

lol. I ran guardian, it's a pile of shit and a mess to install. Car never ran right until I got kpro.

[klik]

i dont even have kpro and i love it lol. i will get one soon tho.

[hkrayingboyz]

I will miss my kpro. How much do you guys think I can get for selling it?

[Red_liner740]

The cost of modifying has significantly dropped from the days when i started in the car scene, late 90's...SIGNIFICANTLY!

back in the day it was a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. (also called an FMU), you would retard the base timing and hope you got a good tune. You ran pig rich to safely tune and hoped for the best. Your fuel mileage would be abysmal and you said to yourself "you gotta pay to play"

turbocharger kits would START at $5K and go up. Engine swaps were $5K and up, and there was still a line up of ppl who wanted to do it.

Standalone EMS were a $2K and up prospect....Why do you think megasquirt became so popular? Because people loved ripping up their oem wiring and spend 100's of hours tuning?

as much as 1K is a hard pill to swallow its nothing compared to what an ECU management of that "calibre" would have cost even 10 years ago. In the end you dont HAVE to run Kpro. You can run a rising rate fuel pressure regulator that will up the fuel pressure and give you more fuel per injector pulse. you can run a piggy back and alter pulse lenght...but in the end none of those solutions will give you as good of a result and will still cost 400/500 bucks. Most of your money will be spent on tuning. so if you spend 1K on kpro and 500 on tuning or 500 on fuel management and 500 on tuning in the end the price diff is not 1/2 but one third. Lets not even incorporate the time and effort of hacking something together vs a plug and play WITH the ability to download a basemap to start off and work from.

another 300 for wideband a/f meter and ability to datalog which is just information you have to interpret and apply vs the kpro which can do it for you....

man i dont even have kpro and i'm willing to tout its positive attributes.