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View Full Version : Tuned my k24a2 ep3 (Graph, picture, and 1/4 time)



ebrow21
03-12-2012, 07:13 PM
A little background;

I had Hybrid-Racing's first k20a2 Ek in 2003, and my 5th k-series setup. There were many other cars along the way, as well, haha. Although I have raced Hondas, Nissans, and Fords, I always have at least one Honda because of the tuning options. This is my daily.

People post graphs on here but don't say much about the process. I figure I will help a bit with those searching for what a basic bolt on k24a2 may want.


Rundown of the mods. Runs were done in 4th gear (k20a2 trans)

Cut up short ram intake for RBB
k20z3 intake cam and 50deg vtc.
The cheapest ep3 ebay shorty header. Previous owner put it on the car with what looks like the stock cat.
Greddy Evo2 2.36in
K-pro
Hybrid-Racing Green/Black Ep3 mounts (Only set in existence, lol)

Nothing crazy.

I found the car liked a lot of cam angle, and a LOW vtec point. The lower I put it, the better torque it made down low. I stopped at 3k, but I'm sure it could make power even lower. Cam angle: 45 degrees to around 4k tapering to 30 degrees at 5k to redline. Its where it made the best torque/power overlay. The dip at 4800 was as good as it gets with this setup, I assume its the crap ass header combo. The a/f sensor in the graph was at the tailpipe, but I am tuning from the OEM sensor location.

The car went 14.1 at 95 two days after the tune, with a nasty headwind and a +1300 DA. It went 13.98 at 97 before the cam/vtc swap, so it should run a lot better in cooler weather. I have a few more things lying around for the car, we will see where it goes.


http://i43.tinypic.com/x6ej5.jpg

The civic.

http://www.thefoat.com/pics/photo_1317615872081274.jpg



For fun, a dyno run of my Mustang.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2mfqrs.jpg

ep3colin
03-12-2012, 08:41 PM
was that 14.1 on slicks?

ebrow21
03-12-2012, 08:42 PM
Yep, the 13.9 was on slicks.

PAPITUYO326
03-12-2012, 08:48 PM
That header sure is choking it up! What are your plans in terms of upgrades? Nice car.

1GR8EP3
03-12-2012, 09:05 PM
agree nice ep3... switch to a race header and you will be over 200whp for sure.

also what size slicks were you running??

ebrow21
03-13-2012, 05:21 AM
agree nice ep3... switch to a race header and you will be over 200whp for sure.

also what size slicks were you running??

Thanks! I have used both 22x8's and 24.5's. All on a stock clutch, lol.



That header sure is choking it up! What are your plans in terms of upgrades? Nice car.

Appreciate it. I have a couple transmissions from you in my garage (if you're who I am thinking of). I know a different header at minimum. The one on the car leaks slightly, which is pretty annoying. Nitrous probably, as I already use it on another car (and get bottles filled). I have and have everything I need already, I just need time to install/setup/tune it. Maybe a JRSC much later down the road. I don't really race this car much, so its all up in the air.

I still have the turbo setup from one of my k-swapped cars, but I would rather not deal with all that on the ep3.

Kerby
03-13-2012, 05:33 AM
why did you go with the k20z3 intake cam? i thought the best oem bump sticks for a k-series were the +06 TSX cams.

AKEP
03-13-2012, 08:58 AM
on that note, i think the z3 cams give better dd mpg than tsx cams. the vtec lobes are the same from what i read.

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 09:25 AM
That header sure is choking it up!

The header/cat, along with the RBB and the k24a2 head is where his TQ is coming from... and one reason the xover can go that low. The FD in his trans is hurting his 1/4 times. Im surprised he got that much cam advance to work on the RBB mani...

ebrow21
03-13-2012, 12:16 PM
why did you go with the k20z3 intake cam? i thought the best oem bump sticks for a k-series were the +06 TSX cams.

I had a set of the cams lying around from one of my old turbo cars motors. I planned on a better header, so threw it in while I put in the 50' vtc.


on that note, i think the z3 cams give better dd mpg than tsx cams. the vtec lobes are the same from what i read.

Mostly mixed city nets 28mpg. I never have to go above 1800rpm. Have not done much highway driving.


The header/cat, along with the RBB and the k24a2 head is where his TQ is coming from... and one reason the xover can go that low. The FD in his trans is hurting his 1/4 times. Im surprised he got that much cam advance to work on the RBB mani...

I have a dyno of each full sweep locked at 45, 40, 30, 25, and 20 degrees. I may post a few when I get home. The difference is significant. I doubt my torque will go down with an actual header, but now I have a baseline to show the difference. I'll be sure to post a before/after graph. This is also why I posted this graph, so those with set notions of what "should" work can see what actually does with a specific setup.

Why would you say the k24a2 head contributed to the torque?


Not sure where the comment on the FD comes from. The car has a k20a2 trans, which beyond first gear is pretty short. I ran the car on 22 in slicks and slowed down vs 24.5's. Furthermore, I was crossing the traps at 7400rpm in 4th on the 22's. There is no room for improvement there.

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 12:34 PM
K24a2 head has smallish ports versus a k24a1 or k20z3 head for example. Smallish ports would support the runners of the RBB mani for TQ. Velocity versus flow.

K20a2 6 speed has a 4.3 FD. Plenty of room for improvement with a 4.7 FD. A 5.0 FD would be overkill IMO.

Blah1219
03-13-2012, 01:19 PM
1800 rpms sounds alittle rough on her. I've always taken it to 2.9 - 3.1k. I was told you are working your engine more by shifting at such a low rpm. Especially with our high reving engines.

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 01:37 PM
I have a dyno of each full sweep locked at 45, 40, 30, 25, and 20 degrees. I may post a few when I get home.

Did you just do a pull on each cam angle and then overlay them... or did you actually TUNE each cam angle (ignition and fuel), and THEN overlay them?

mitchlikesbikes
03-13-2012, 01:49 PM
Did you just do a pull on each cam angle and then overlay them... or did you actually TUNE each cam angle (ignition and fuel), and THEN overlay them?

this guy:mrolleyes:

hahaha:hay:

btw i like this car. and hybrid racing FTW!

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 02:09 PM
this guy:mrolleyes:

hahaha:hay:

btw i like this car. and hybrid racing FTW!

:mredface:

It makes a big difference though... thats the only reason i ask. No harm intended...

mitchlikesbikes
03-13-2012, 02:11 PM
:mredface:

It makes a big difference though... thats the only reason i ask. No harm intended...

truth be told i'm just jealous of your mad kpoo knowledge:mcry:

ebrow21
03-13-2012, 02:44 PM
K24a2 head has smallish ports versus a k24a1 or k20z3 head for example. Smallish ports would support the runners of the RBB mani for TQ. Velocity versus flow.

K20a2 6 speed has a 4.3 FD. Plenty of room for improvement with a 4.7 FD. A 5.0 FD would be overkill IMO.

The smaller tires increased the effective final drive, which was my point. Already tried, the car was slower. Furthermore, the car ran out of RPM at the end of the track with the shorter tire.


Did you just do a pull on each cam angle and then overlay them... or did you actually TUNE each cam angle (ignition and fuel), and THEN overlay them?


:mredface:

It makes a big difference though... thats the only reason i ask. No harm intended...

I guess I didn't proofread my first post. I have been tuning k-series cars for almost 10 years. Not only do I tune/build other people's cars, I have had 5 specific k-series cars (four swapped, one oem) all of which have had k-pro, all of which have been tuned by me. You're asking questions as though I'm a moron or asking for advice, and it is not necessary. I made this post specifically for people searching forums to have a concrete answer instead of listening to someone say "I HEARD". This is me saying "I DID".

This car is slow, and I don't care what advice you have about making my car faster. If I wanted to go fast I would put a stock motor in the EP3 and sell it. I would then place the k24a2 and the turbo kit from one of my old k-swapped cars in a civic I already have in my driveway. Or I would just drive my Mustang.

Spell it out for you enough?

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 02:56 PM
Wow... Mr Hostility. That wasnt my intent as already mentioned to another member after i made the post. I just asked a simple question...

You said before the car had room to grow. If you were going to add a header, and raise the rev limit to make more power... why would you plan to rollout at 7400 at the end of the 1/4 mile? If thats the case then a 4.7 WOULD help you.

But whatever. Grab your crotch and bang that keyboard. I sure hope you dont work for Hybrid Racing. If so... im sure David would LOVE to see your attitude...

mitchlikesbikes
03-13-2012, 03:07 PM
The smaller tires increased the effective final drive, which was my point. Already tried, the car was slower. Furthermore, the car ran out of RPM at the end of the track with the shorter tire.





I guess I didn't proofread my first post. I have been tuning k-series cars for almost 10 years. Not only do I tune/build other people's cars, I have had 5 specific k-series cars (four swapped, one oem) all of which have had k-pro, all of which have been tuned by me. You're asking questions as though I'm a moron or asking for advice, and it is not necessary. I made this post specifically for people searching forums to have a concrete answer instead of listening to someone say "I HEARD". This is me saying "I DID".

This car is slow, and I don't care what advice you have about making my car faster. If I wanted to go fast I would put a stock motor in the EP3 and sell it. I would then place the k24a2 and the turbo kit from one of my old k-swapped cars in a civic I already have in my driveway. Or I would just drive my Mustang.

Spell it out for you enough?


http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/mitchlikesbikes/memes%20and%20gifs/docrivers.gif

hyu
03-13-2012, 04:02 PM
Random questions... What front lip is that? Can't tell that good with my phone

Sent from my T959 using Tapatalk

ebrow21
03-13-2012, 04:41 PM
Wow... Mr Hostility. That wasnt my intent as already mentioned to another member after i made the post. I just asked a simple question...

You said before the car had room to grow. If you were going to add a header, and raise the rev limit to make more power... why would you plan to rollout at 7400 at the end of the 1/4 mile? If thats the case then a 4.7 WOULD help you.

But whatever. Grab your crotch and bang that keyboard. I sure hope you dont work for Hybrid Racing. If so... im sure David would LOVE to see your attitude...


I'm not raising the rev limiter, the car has a stock oil pump. Reread my posts, I've already explained what is going on.

I don't work for Hybrid, but you can still run and tell Davey on me, he knows I can be an asshole. He also knows I know what I am talking about.

Let me ask you if you torqued the lugnuts when you show me your wheels. You're condescending. Maybe its the nature of this forum for you to do that. Don't get bent out of shape because you were called on it.


For the question about the lip, its a CTR.

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 04:54 PM
I'm not raising the rev limiter, the car has a stock oil pump. Reread my posts, I've already explained what is going on.

I don't work for Hybrid, but you can still run and tell Davey on me, he knows I can be an asshole. He also knows I know what I am talking about.

Let me ask you if you torqued the lugnuts when you show me your wheels. You're condescending. Maybe its the nature of this forum for you to do that. Don't get bent out of shape because you were called on it.

Ok, look ass jockey... now im bent outta shape.

It wasnt condecention, it was a straight up question that... i might add... you STILL have not answered (and im still asking, because you HAVENT explained whats going on).

I dont care if youve assisted in the launch of a space shuttle... there is no reason why i cant ask you a question without your 'sand in your vagina' remarks.

No need to tell Davey.. we all know you can be an asshole without his confirmation. I happen to love HR products, and i got :mfrown: when you started name dropping to try and add credibility to your post.

It was actually nice to see someone post up an 'out of the ordinary' k24a2 build with pix/dyno info/1/4 mile times... in an EP no less. And if you had spent more time on this site than you have, you would have realized that asking questions helps to inform the member base. I ask questions to help US. Not to challenge YOU. Prick.

- Dave

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 05:20 PM
Man ive seen your name at the bottom of the page for like half an hour now. You still huntin and peckin at keys... or do you have Dictionary.com open to help you understand some of what i posted?

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 05:23 PM
I mean, this IS a Dyno info thread.

Asking about cam angle tuning for a composite map overlay IS a valid question.

Would you rather i ask about your lug nuts?

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 05:24 PM
... or your lack thereof...?

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 05:26 PM
Come on man. Im bored and havent had a valid reason to toot my horn of my accomplishments... or how many years ive been working on Hondas.

Hell man, my failures are prolly better than your greatest feats...

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 05:27 PM
Make sure you quote all of this too. I wanna take up the whole next page of your worthless thread with my posts...

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 05:29 PM
Just gimme your shipping info so i can send you a better keyboard... i know youve beat the piss outta that one.

Blah1219
03-13-2012, 05:35 PM
Dave is a post Whore! I knew you had a secret behind those 1.5k posts!!

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 06:08 PM
Dave is a post Whore! I knew you had a secret behind those 1.5k posts!!

LoL! I wonder if he knew he could press F11 for instant EPolice...

Yanno im totally cool with a mod deleting these posts too. I hate showing my ass but damn... i cant stand that mess.

I really want him to share his angle findings because everyone thats bothered to DYNO tune an RBB has been pretty hush hush about their findings... or have been pretty general about it...

Blah1219
03-13-2012, 06:16 PM
This will shut you up.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/burningxslowly5/IMAG0283.jpg

Yeah, that is your intake manifold getting spoiled.

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 06:27 PM
You pecker!! You got the TB on there too!! Shit is BAWSE!

:thumbu:

ebrow21
03-13-2012, 06:43 PM
Poor guy. Really? I have a child which I needed to feed, bathe, and put to sleep. Sorry I left the page open and kept you waiting, but I've said what I have to say to you.

Sorry.

Civic5lug
03-13-2012, 06:43 PM
:popcorn:

I'll see how long it takes him to bang that keyboard :tehe: then I'll clean this shizzy up...... Maybe we'll make him his own section so he has plenty of room for that ego :mrolleyes:

Ba82Ep3
03-13-2012, 06:50 PM
Poor guy. Really? I have a child which I needed to feed, bathe, and put to sleep. Sorry I left the page open and kept you waiting, but I've said what I have to say to you.

Sorry.

NOW you apologize? THATS IT?!

For real tho. I wasnt being an ass asking the question. PLEASE share your info. This isnt Honda Tech and we dont ball bust people (unless they ask for it). There are lots of members here that would love to see what does what, even if they dont post up about it. Thats why i DO ask questions... so the info IS there.

Brucie will clean the thread up for ya and i wont post a peep... cross my heart. :mangel:

PAPITUYO326
03-13-2012, 07:29 PM
The header/cat, along with the RBB and the k24a2 head is where his TQ is coming from... and one reason the xover can go that low. The FD in his trans is hurting his 1/4 times. Im surprised he got that much cam advance to work on the RBB mani...

Right, it is helping keep that torque up, but it is hurting his top end HP. I had a similar setup in 2005 on my old 04-05 k24a2 except I was on an 05 Type S midpipe and on the stock k24a2 cams. I trapped 95.5-96.5 pretty consistently until I got rid of the shorty header and oem cat. Once I swapped in the DCRH I trapped 96.5-97.5. Never got to run that motor with better cams and a less restrictive exhaust before I sold it.

ebrow21
03-13-2012, 07:59 PM
:popcorn:

I'll see how long it takes him to bang that keyboard :tehe: then I'll clean this shizzy up...... Maybe we'll make him his own section so he has plenty of room for that ego :mrolleyes:

As I said, I'm done. Declare yourselves king of this anthill. Have fun.

Slip_Angle
03-13-2012, 08:02 PM
I'd like to hear mooaaar! I started with a PRB, switched to an RBB and now an RRC... I'd like to try my RBB after porting.

ebrow21
03-13-2012, 08:44 PM
I'd like to hear mooaaar! I started with a PRB, switched to an RBB and now an RRC... I'd like to try my RBB after porting.

I'll dyno/tune the car again after I put a header on it. I'll post a graph on here to show where the gains are.

Here is a graph of the torque overlay.

http://i39.tinypic.com/25kpf1w.jpg

Run 3 is 45 degrees
Run 4 is 40 degrees
Run 6 is 30 degrees
Run 7 is 20 degrees
Run 9 is 25 degrees

AKEP
03-13-2012, 10:11 PM
-________- damn it! This is good fresh info!

ebrow: you did kinda pull the trigger on ba82, it was a simple question on procedure. but we can't tell how credible you are off ~11 posts. Now that you've cleared that up we're here to listen and take notes. The attitude on this forum is pretty chill (if you haven't noticed lol) - I hope that you can come back with more info on your findings, as I'm also interested in what you got going on. Post up your other builds too please!

Ba82: this guy...

ebrow21
03-14-2012, 05:18 AM
-________- damn it! This is good fresh info!

ebrow: you did kinda pull the trigger on ba82, it was a simple question on procedure. but we can't tell how credible you are off ~11 posts. Now that you've cleared that up we're here to listen and take notes. The attitude on this forum is pretty chill (if you haven't noticed lol) - I hope that you can come back with more info on your findings, as I'm also interested in what you got going on. Post up your other builds too please!

Ba82: this guy...


That is why I said anything about other cars, so anyone who read the thread would have an idea where the info is coming from. Not to brag.

Ba82Ep3
03-14-2012, 09:14 AM
This is good fresh info!

Exactly. So much better than the normal "can i run this with that" type threads (which i know they have their purpose too but). Im excited to see some in depth discussion/info... :mcool:

Powers
03-20-2012, 12:06 AM
Ba82ep3, after I finish my k24a1 k20z3 hybrid like we discussed (I really did write that in my notepad for a parts list too) can you tune it for me? Im being serious too not trying to offend anyone or make a joke. You seem like you really know what your doing with these k-series motors and I'd love to soak up some information from you during the tuning process.....but give me a little bit on sourcing and picking up the parts for this build :mwink:

Ba82Ep3
03-20-2012, 11:14 AM
Well... im not the only one around here with KPro knowledge, but i dont mind helping peeps out at all. Just lemme know when the time comes. :mwink:

I wish we had a thread that went indepth into how to build a basemap for your specific setup, how to take parts from different basemaps and make them work for hybrid setups, and finally how to street tune your own setup. When i built my EJ and started street tuning it i kept logs, pix, and tons of data for a thread just like this... but without admin ability it becomes a nightmare to try and put it together. I found that out trying to put together my 6 speed trans rebuild thread.

95% of my tuning knowledge is street based. Street based tuning can be just as effective IF tuning parameters are strictly repeated each pull. If your setup has enough power to create wheelspin, then IMO that entire street pull is worthless. I cant begin to tell you how many 100+mph passes i have made on I-64, or how many hours of part throttle KDL time i have put on my personal engines over the years.

Dyno tuning advantages are ease of parameter consistency, faster tune time, accurate pictoral/numerical display (which also makes tuning ignition timing so much better), safety, and avoiding cop issues. This is also why it isnt "FREE". lol

The question i posed earlier in this thread (tuning each cam angle prior to an overlay) can be difficult to accurately do on the street. This is one reason Hondata provides "tuned" basemaps... but anyone that tunes KPro and has a fair amount of knowledge with it can tell you that a majority of those basemaps are not tuned per the detailed parameters laid out in the KManager instructions. If they were, there wouldnt be drastic amounts of fuel missing in certain areas, and ignition maps wouldnt have spikes. IE: the original HiOc map Hondata used to provide for the k20a3 had a HUGE ignition spike in it.

Its understandable that they are going to provide a "free" basemap with minimal work, because a true tune would be very time consuming (time is $), and likely work less for your bolt on setup than the basemap already provided. The more specific the map is tuned to a certain setup... the less ideal it becomes for another assumed identical setup. There are too many vairables in mass produced cars/engines/parts and atmospheric/fuel variations to assume an awesome map on one car would be perfect for yours. Its ALWAYS gonna need work.

SkareKrow
03-20-2012, 11:30 AM
Well... im not the only one around here with KPro knowledge, but i dont mind helping peeps out at all. Just lemme know when the time comes. :mwink:

I wish we had a thread that went indepth into how to build a basemap for your specific setup, how to take parts from different basemaps and make them work for hybrid setups, and finally how to street tune your own setup. When i built my EJ and started street tuning it i kept logs, pix, and tons of data for a thread just like this... but without admin ability it becomes a nightmare to try and put it together. I found that out trying to put together my 6 speed trans rebuild thread.

95% of my tuning knowledge is street based. Street based tuning can be just as effective IF tuning parameters are strictly repeated each pull. If your setup has enough power to create wheelspin, then IMO that entire street pull is worthless. I cant begin to tell you how many 100+mph passes i have made on I-64, or how many hours of part throttle KDL time i have put on my personal engines over the years.

Dyno tuning advantages are ease of parameter consistency, faster tune time, accurate pictoral/numerical display (which also makes tuning ignition timing so much better), safety, and avoiding cop issues. This is also why it isnt "FREE". lol

The question i posed earlier in this thread (tuning each cam angle prior to an overlay) can be difficult to accurately do on the street. This is one reason Hondata provides "tuned" basemaps... but anyone that tunes KPro and has a fair amount of knowledge with it can tell you that a majority of those basemaps are not tuned per the detailed parameters laid out in the KManager instructions. If they were, there wouldnt be drastic amounts of fuel missing in certain areas, and ignition maps wouldnt have spikes. IE: the original HiOc map Hondata used to provide for the k20a3 had a HUGE ignition spike in it.

Its understandable that they are going to provide a "free" basemap with minimal work, because a true tune would be very time consuming (time is $), and likely work less for your bolt on setup than the basemap already provided. The more specific the map is tuned to a certain setup... the less ideal it becomes for another assumed identical setup. There are too many vairables in mass produced cars/engines/parts and atmospheric/fuel variations to assume an awesome map on one car would be perfect for yours. Its ALWAYS gonna need work.

:pop2: Keep going very informative!:smile:

Sent from my PC36100 using Xparent Red Tapatalk

iDom
03-20-2012, 11:50 AM
Ba82Ep3 is a good dude. He walked me through what to do and answered AT LEAST 100 questions of mine that I had on KPRO/KManager alone.. All for nothing. Never once got irritated (at least he didn't show it haha) or anything with my noob'ness. He helped me out and we did some e-tuning on my k20a3 and it literally feels twice as good as the 'I/H/E Hi-Octane' basemap supplied by Hondata.

Everyone has to start out somewhere. He explained that to me and because of that, I wasn't really afraid to ask any question I could think of, and it helped.. A LOT. My point is, he isn't one to have bad intentions.

I am interested in this thread as well. It's nice to see this sort of thing. I really think all the so-called "condescending" remarks were just misunderstood. I know myself, and i'm sure all the other members appreciate it or WOULD appreciate it if you stuck around and share with us some more of you findings/info.

SkareKrow
03-20-2012, 11:58 AM
Ba82Ep3 is a good dude. He walked me through what to do and answered AT LEAST 100 questions of mine that I had on KPRO/KManager alone.. All for nothing. Never once got irritated (at least he didn't show it haha) or anything with my noob'ness. He helped me out and we did some e-tuning on my k20a3 and it literally feels twice as good as the 'I/H/E Hi-Octane' basemap supplied by Hondata.

Everyone has to start out somewhere. He explained that to me and because of that, I wasn't really afraid to ask any question I could think of, and it helped.. A LOT. My point is, he isn't one to have bad intentions.

I am interested in this thread as well. It's nice to see this sort of thing. I really think all the so-called "condescending" remarks were just misunderstood. I know myself, and i'm sure all the other members appreciate it or WOULD appreciate it if you stuck around and share with us some more of you findings/info.

Word + 1 to Ba82Ep3

Sent from my PC36100 using Xparent Red Tapatalk

crx-b18c
04-04-2013, 02:31 PM
where did u bought that lip? nice ep3 bro