Track setup advice.

[lordeldor]

Hi all,

First off lets start with the car. 2002 Civic Si. The car needs work so it is currently on jack stands. Being 10 years old every bushing is shot the tie rods are spent and there is at least one bad wheel bearing. The good news is it has a perfectly healthy k24a2 and a rsx-s six speed with a quaife.

I bought this car with the intent of using it as a cheap track day car to learn in. I intend to start out with NASA HPDEs and if I should ever reach a competitive level I would want to join the fun in the Honda Challenge. Likely H1 given my car's current prep.

I don't really have any intent in competing any time soon because I need plenty of work myself. But I figured it would be best to pick a class and build to it so I had a good direction.

With that in mind here is the rule book if you are interested:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Honda-Challenge.pdf

Some high points:
The swapped motor and trans are allowed
The Toyo Proxes RA1 is the tire specified for the series
Brake and Suspension modifications are allowed using stock mounting points

Anyway, on with the discussion:

I am looking at brakes suspension and steering right now.

1. Is it possible to do a 5 lug swap with just rotors, hubs, and bearings?
If it is possible will it give me more options for big brakes?
2. I haven't seen any brake kits with fronts and rears.
Does anyone have any comments on brake bias changes and stopping distance changes with their big brake kit?
3. Since I have a k24 my front sway interferes with the header.
What is the best solution for this? Different sway? Different header?

Thanks in advance guys.

[USAF EP3]

1. Not sure because you need to measure the size/clearance of the wheel bearings you plan on using and if they fit into the 02-03 EP3 knuckles/spindles.
also it may NOT give you more options for big brakes because the mounting point for the caliper on the knuckles/spindles are different for each car, some are the same some aren't.

2. Don't have answer for this.

3. Remove your front sway or use the 01-05 Civic EX 15mm Front sway, much thinner obviously and will clear the K24 header.

[whatsvtec]

Wilwood sells a single piston rear set-up that is a little larger/stronger than ours now. You could upgrade to wilwood 4 or 6 piston up front, with the upgraded wilwood rear, throw in adjustable brake bias and abs delete, you could have a nice little track brake set-up.

[Specialis]

Your comments are very appreciated:)

[lordeldor]

1. Not sure because you need to measure the size/clearance of the wheel bearings you plan on using and if they fit into the 02-03 EP3 knuckles/spindles.
also it may NOT give you more options for big brakes because the mounting point for the caliper on the knuckles/spindles are different for each car, some are the same some aren't.

2. Don't have answer for this.

3. Remove your front sway or use the 01-05 Civic EX 15mm Front sway, much thinner obviously and will clear the K24 header.

Yeah I am really trying to determine if it makes any sense to do the 5 lug conversion. If it doesn't make my brake choices any wider I may just forgo it for now.

I will be getting the rest of the suspension dialed in before I tread too deeply into the sway bar discussion, but I will look into the smaller bar. I will try to get the suspension setup so I can run with no front bar, but we shall see how that works out.


Wilwood sells a single piston rear set-up that is a little larger/stronger than ours now. You could upgrade to wilwood 4 or 6 piston up front, with the upgraded wilwood rear, throw in adjustable brake bias and abs delete, you could have a nice little track brake set-up.

That is interesting. I had noticed the Wilwood front kit but not the rears. I don't see it on their website, but I can reach out to them to see what is what. Thanks for the heads up!

[mitchlikesbikes]

there may not be MORE options for 5 lug, but i think you can get much bigger and better kits more easily for less. (stoptechs, brembos, etc)

monjarassi is actually running OEM evo calipers on his 5 lug. pretty cool setup i think and would be pretty solid bang for your buck if you shopped around for calipers

[lordeldor]

there may not be MORE options for 5 lug, but i think you can get much bigger and better kits more easily for less. (stoptechs, brembos, etc)

monjarassi is actually running OEM evo calipers on his 5 lug. pretty cool setup i think and would be pretty solid bang for your buck if you shopped around for calipers

What is really important to me is the brake systems ability to handle heat stress. I want to avoid brake fade on the track.

A set of evo calipers is an interesting idea. I suppose he had a machine shop make an adapter for mounting the caliper?

The prices on the Wilwood kits sure are enticing though.

[mitchlikesbikes]

yeah i believe that is what he did.

as far as fade, i think the biggest factor is having high quality fluid and pads to go along with the system itself. as far as i see it a stock brake set up with excellent pads would hold up to heat much longer than say a wilwood kit with subpar pads. i have no evidence to back up that theory though haha:mangel:

[lordeldor]

Fluid and pads are a big part of it. I also think there are benefits from rotors designed for greater airflow and calipers with greater surface area. A lot of times the big brake kits are lighter too which is a really good thing.

I am interested in any stopping distance comparisons people have between stock and upgrades. If anyone can share that would be great.

[mitchlikesbikes]

man, i would love to see some solid info on that stuff too. can't say i've seen any TRUE bbk reviews since i joined.

[whatsvtec]

My vote personally, Wilwood front and rear kits. There are tons of upgraded rotor options through wilwood to help with your concerns on heat. Also, running track pads will help greatly. 4 or 5 lug is up to you. Get the wilwood front and rear set-up. delete abs, add adjustable bias. Run some 6ul or team dynamics pro race 1.2 and you've got badass braking with light/strong wheels.

[RhINoX^]

First before upgrading to BBK I would try Brembo blanks + good track brake pads + Stainless steel lines + high boiling brake fluid.
And BBK don`t shorten the brake distance...not at all. Just giving you consistent braking over longer period of time.
I myself run KVR 4pot front break kit.
And my advise is learn to drive the car as is... rather spending tons of cash on brake kits. I don`t even think you need rear kit. 80% of the braking is done by front brakes anyway.

[lordeldor]

Thanks for the comments. My main concern with stopping distances is not increasing them. I have seen data on other cars that shows a negative effect when only swapping out the front kit. The blame was placed on an improper brake bias. However I don't doubt it is possible the oem rear kit in this car is sufficient. I do know that the rears are subject to less abuse and as you said good pads and fluid should go a long way.

In regard to learning how to drive the car as it is I have already run one of these cars with good pads and fluid. Brake fade still occurred. I want to sort it out while I have the car torn down for everything else. Brake ducts will be a big part of the equation too.

[Lucid Moments]

With our cars heat is a real issue. I've got the Wilwood front brakes on my car and while I have never had fade I have still had what I believe to be heat related issues. You don't have has much power as I did so you probably won't see quite the same speeds I see, and therefore not as much heat, but I would still seriously consider a BBK if it is allowed within the rules. Ducting is also an excellent idea even with a BBK.

As for braking distance I don't see that as much of an issue really. First is that Wilwood designed the caliper so that the piston area are the same as the OEM piston area so you should get the same clamping force with an aftermarket caliper as with the OEM one. You have to work to balance the brakes in any event, and you can do that with brake pads anyway.

[lordeldor]

Thank you. Yes a big brake kit is allowed, and ducting is allowed for the front brakes. I assume you have forced induction? The racing class dictates N/A so you would be correct on my speeds being lower than yours. Do you have brake ducts

I was not aware the Wilwood front kit used the same total piston surface area. That is a great bit of information.

[Lucid Moments]

Thank you. Yes a big brake kit is allowed, and ducting is allowed for the front brakes. I assume you have forced induction? The racing class dictates N/A so you would be correct on my speeds being lower than yours. Do you have brake ducts

I was not aware the Wilwood front kit used the same total piston surface area. That is a great bit of information.

Yea, I'm running a built/blown K24 frank. 296.4 whp. I never added ducts to my car. I was going to, but I have now decided to turn my ep into more of a street car. I got a guy with a laser pyrometer to shoot my brake rotor temps at Carolina Motorsports Park and my fronts were over 1200 degrees. I don't know how much ducts would have helped, but they sure as hell couldn't have hurt.

I came across the piston size a while back when discussing BBK's online. I did the math and the total area difference was ridiculously small. I don't remember exactly but IIRC less than 0.01 square inches.

[cow]

I don't have good input, but as it is relevant to my interests, I'm posting in the thread so it'll catch my eye when I check new posts.

[gtolio]

Wilwood sells a single piston rear set-up that is a little larger/stronger than ours now. You could upgrade to wilwood 4 or 6 piston up front, with the upgraded wilwood rear, throw in adjustable brake bias and abs delete, you could have a nice little track brake set-up.

You don't need to do the Wilwood rears. The fronts do virtually all the work on our cars. Just do upgraded pads and lines for the rear.

Quite frankly, you could probably do something similar in the front as well and run some good fluid and be fine.

[lordeldor]

Yea, I'm running a built/blown K24 frank. 296.4 whp. I never added ducts to my car. I was going to, but I have now decided to turn my ep into more of a street car. I got a guy with a laser pyrometer to shoot my brake rotor temps at Carolina Motorsports Park and my fronts were over 1200 degrees. I don't know how much ducts would have helped, but they sure as hell couldn't have hurt.

I came across the piston size a while back when discussing BBK's online. I did the math and the total area difference was ridiculously small. I don't remember exactly but IIRC less than 0.01 square inches.

Either purpose you use it for I am sure your car has been plenty of fun man. Thanks for the info!

I don't have good input, but as it is relevant to my interests, I'm posting in the thread so it'll catch my eye when I check new posts.

You are always welcome in my threads sir.

You don't need to do the Wilwood rears. The fronts do virtually all the work on our cars. Just do upgraded pads and lines for the rear.

Quite frankly, you could probably do something similar in the front as well and run some good fluid and be fine.

I recognize that I could get by for a few sessions with stock calipers and rotors. But since I have done the upgraded pads and fluid thing on an ep before I know the front brakes will not shed enough heat if I am practicing trail braking.

I have been trolling some other more racing oriented forums and sites. It seems the consensus is that rear brake kits are largely unnecessary on these cars (FWD Hondas). So much so in fact, many people claim that it would be a detriment to go bigger on the rear. I figure I will listen to that and move on with life. If I see heat issues in the rear end I will address them then.

Right now I am waiting on:
Energy Suspension master bushing kit
Replacement parts for all 4 wheel bearings
2 fresh spindle nuts
Replacement tie-rods

I will likely put in an order for a front brake kit this weekend. And I am trying to work with someone to rebuild the coilovers I inherited with the car.

The car has been disassembled in advance of these parts arriving. Honestly the coilover rebuild will probably be the longest wait but with that in mind I am trying to get everything together to get the car rolling again as soon as all the parts arrive. Of course as soon as it is rolling I will be getting fresh rubber and an alignment. I need to search for someone near me who can corner balance my car.

So many things to do.:msmile:

[gtolio]

Sounds like you got the right idea.

Still, my thought is that ducts are going to help you a lot more with the temps than a big brake kit will (coming from someone with a Wilwood 6-piston Dynapro and 12.2" slotted BBK setup). I can't run ducts because of my intercooler piping. :mfrown:

[lordeldor]

You may very well be right about the ducts. How do you like your six pot kit?

[Lucid Moments]

One thing I will mention with the Wilwood kits. I still had heat trouble with mine. Not fade, but rotors cracking due to differential expansion. The rotor ring expands faster than the aluminum hats and that causes cracks on the ring where it bolts to the hat. Higher priced kits like the StopTech use what is called a floating rotor to solve that problem, but they are generally a lot more expensive.

[gtolio]

You may very well be right about the ducts. How do you like your six pot kit?

I like them. I think I cooked the stock OEM rears the last time I was at the track though. It's been making this weird grinding feel in the pedal, only under heavy braking, ever since. Doesn't feel like ABS to me, but I'll probably pull the fuse for it to make sure. Then I'm probably going to throw some Hawk HPS pads on in the back and change my fluid before I go to the track again. Really tempted to splurge and put Castrol SRF in it. "Exceptionally high dry boiling point of 590ºF (Wet 518ºF)" :cclap:
I'm also going to re-bed the pads and rotors again. I don't think I adequately did that when I first put the kit on.



I got a guy with a laser pyrometer to shoot my brake rotor temps at Carolina Motorsports Park and my fronts were over 1200 degrees.

This has me a little worried. After the incident above, I checked my race pad heat limits and they were like 1300 something F. I figured that it wouldn't get close to that, but 1200 is pretty close. Any more info on this?

[gtolio]

One thing I will mention with the Wilwood kits. I still had heat trouble with mine. Not fade, but rotors cracking due to differential expansion. The rotor ring expands faster than the aluminum hats and that causes cracks on the ring where it bolts to the hat. Higher priced kits like the StopTech use what is called a floating rotor to solve that problem, but they are generally a lot more expensive.

Mine have floating rotors, and I would be surprised if yours didn't as well.

These aren't mine, but essentially what they look like:
http://www.davebarton.com/wilwood-r-rotor-lores.jpg

[Lucid Moments]

Mine have floating rotors, and I would be surprised if yours didn't as well.

These aren't mine, but essentially what they look like:

Mine definitely are not floating. I put the kit on back in 2004 or 2005 so the floating rotors may be something newish from Wilwood.

[gtolio]

Mine definitely are not floating. I put the kit on back in 2004 or 2005 so the floating rotors may be something newish from Wilwood.

Oh, ok. Yeah, mine are almost identical to the picture I posted. They must have changed it somewhere down the line.

If you do get Wilwoods (or any other BBK) with the floating type, make sure that you have the connecting bolts for the two pieces safety wired. Really important so that the bolts don't loosen themselves.

[lordeldor]

One thing I will mention with the Wilwood kits. I still had heat trouble with mine. Not fade, but rotors cracking due to differential expansion. The rotor ring expands faster than the aluminum hats and that causes cracks on the ring where it bolts to the hat. Higher priced kits like the StopTech use what is called a floating rotor to solve that problem, but they are generally a lot more expensive.
That is very good to know. How many rotors have you gone through? Since it is a 2 piece design are you seeing damage to hat at all? I am aware of stoptech's prices. I have been eyeing a kit for my other car. (Legacy GT)

I like them. I think I cooked the stock OEM rears the last time I was at the track though. It's been making this weird grinding feel in the pedal, only under heavy braking, ever since. Doesn't feel like ABS to me, but I'll probably pull the fuse for it to make sure. Then I'm probably going to throw some Hawk HPS pads on in the back and change my fluid before I go to the track again. Really tempted to splurge and put Castrol SRF in it. "Exceptionally high dry boiling point of 590ºF (Wet 518ºF)" :cclap:
I'm also going to re-bed the pads and rotors again. I don't think I adequately did that when I first put the kit on.
Thanks again for the comments on your setup.

Oh, ok. Yeah, mine are almost identical to the picture I posted. They must have changed it somewhere down the line.

If you do get Wilwoods (or any other BBK) with the floating type, make sure that you have the connecting bolts for the two pieces safety wired. Really important so that the bolts don't loosen themselves.
I will make sure I pay attention to that suggestion and any install instructions that come with the kit as well as cross referencing the Helm service manual.

[Zzyzx]

not sure if it was asked, but it should be (and no its not meant to be mean)

Have you ever driven this or any other car in a competitive event before? (Autocross or open track)

[Lucid Moments]

That is very good to know. How many rotors have you gone through? Since it is a 2 piece design are you seeing damage to hat at all? I am aware of stoptech's prices. I have been eyeing a kit for my other car. (Legacy GT)


Running HPDE 3 & 4. I would go through 2 sets of rotors a season or so. Depending on how much of which tracks I run.


Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

[lordeldor]

not sure if it was asked, but it should be (and no its not meant to be mean)

Have you ever driven this or any other car in a competitive event before? (Autocross or open track)
No offense taken. I welcome the insight you have to offer. The answer is no. I have only been to track days and had fun with an ep (this is my second) in an uncompetitive environment. I am looking to use this car specifically to work on my driving skills. My thinking was that I would want to keep the car within spec for a racing class. Specifically not exceeding its limitations. I was not thinking I would just jump right in and compete. :mbiggrin: Nor do I know if I will ever reach that level.

I do not intend on modifying this car excessively (any more than it is anyway) just to drive it either. Right now I am working to undo the damage done by 10 years and some poor suspension choices by previous owners.

Brake upgrades seem logical given the condition of the current setup and my previous experiences with an 03 ep.

Anyway once the car is in proper shape to drive, let alone drive on the track, I intend on taking it out to HPDEs and Autocross events and getting as much seat time as possible.

Running HPDE 3 & 4. I would go through 2 sets of rotors a season or so. Depending on how much of which tracks I run.
Good to know. That is certainly a consideration.

[Hasbro]

GRM put on racing pads and ducting and they were pretty satisfied with the results. Save your brake money and go racing, then decide what you need. Who knows, a lot of people spend a ton of money only to find out tracking the car was a little more than they really wanted to deal with.

I don't think the results are in here but I have them somewhere if you want them. This covers their ducting install and is a good read in general for you;
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2002-Honda-civic-si/