K24 Internal Engine Whine - Pro builders please look

[cyllarus]

So , I have been working through a K24 build and as you may know, once the motor was installed, and started, the motor had a nasty whine/growl coming from the bottom end.

See thread here:
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=102325

and a youtube vid here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvyimr9Ndk4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The motor is a stock k24a2, rbb intanke, k20 oil pump.

On the first thread the answers as to what this noise were ranged from "belt whine" to "my swap made this noise, it goes away"

But i decided to pull the motor and open it up just to be sure, and here is what i found:

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/2012-04-22_15-12-25_266.jpg

Take note of the oil chain guide

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/2012-04-22_15-12-41_311.jpg

For comparison here is a stock k24a2 with a stock k24 oil pump

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/k24-oilchain2.jpg

and a k24 with a swapped k20 pump

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/k20-oilchain.jpg

based on this i am 95% sure that i have the wrong chain guide.

could running the wrong chain guide be the source of this whine i am hearing from the motor?

I suspect that if the chain guide is wrong, so is the tensioner. how can i tell by looking at the tensioner which tensioner i have (k24 or k20)

Additionally i saw 2 other things of note:

metal dust in the oil pan
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/2012-04-20_22-02-03_946.jpg
note that the big grey bits are honda bond (not metal) that came off the pan as i took it off. note the uber small metallic bits in the pan.

should i be worried? these bits are small almost like a super fine powder or dust.

oil port blocked with "mystery epoxy" instead of a bolt
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/2012-04-20_22-11-37_139.jpg
looks like the previous owner (sk8board{pete}) had issues removing whatever "thingy" is in this port, so he just closed it with some sort of epoxy
Should i be worried?
the epoxy seems pretty tough, not pliable at all.

would appreciate the input of engine veterans.. Im looking to do this RIGHT ...

[PAPITUYO326]

This is definitely the source of your problems. I ran into this same issue on my first K24 build back in the day. I detailed what you needed to do in your original thread.

http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?68517-engine-builder-pros-take-a-look-need-some-help-with-a-k24-swap-issue&highlight=

I don't have any spare guides or tensioners in my possession to measure or compare, but just swap them all out for A2 pieces. They are cheap parts and worth the investment. ~60 bucks to swap everything out.

http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=RSX&catcgry2=2004&catcgry3=3DR+TYPE-S&catcgry4=KA6MT&catcgry5=OIL%2BPUMP%2B-%2BOIL%2BSTRAINER&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no

The epoxy fix is not a bad way to go about it. Most people dab some epoxy on a flangebolt and let that do the job. Seems like the previous builder decided that plugging the hole was the route of choice. I wouldn't bother undoing the epoxy.

[cyllarus]

Thanks for the reply. Did your motor make the same whine/howl with the k24 parts?

Already in the process of locating new parts for the entire oil chain setup.

Thanks a ton for the input on the oil port issue.. i'm glad to hear its ok to leave it like that, i was not looking forward to dremel-ing that stuff out and then fighting with the little plug...

Will keep thread updated.

[03Si757]

This is some good info, should be posted in a sticky or some other form for info.

[PAPITUYO326]

Yep, I had that annoying whine. Thankfully it was the summer time in between semesters, so I was alright.

[Deadphishy]

run a magnet over those metal flakes. If they stick you might have something in the bottom end that is wearing. If they are Aluminum I would look at your head.

[cyllarus]

I did, most of the metallic "dust" didnt stick, so i'm assuming was aluminum,

some of the larger flakes did stick, so are steel. however I think they may have come from either:
-pieces of the oil pan that i shaved off when i was driving my putty knife along the seal to separate it from the block
- previous owner added a magnetic oil pan bolt that did not thread properly into the oil pan bolt hole, so he just cross threaded the hole and torqued it down, basically cut a new thread..

[cyllarus]

Please forgive my upcoming rant, I just spent 4 hours doing something that should have took me 30 sec.


WTF HONDA.. WHEN ARE ALLEN BOLTS EVER OK EVER

NO THEY ARE NOT EVER OK..

EVERY TIME I RUN ACROSS ONE OF THESE THINGS THEY STRIP..
NOT SOMETIMES
NOT MOST OF THE TIME

EV -UH - REE TIME!!

Tried to take off the allen bolt that held on the chain guide today

AND OF COURSE IT STRIPPED.

TRIED TO HAMMER IN A LARGER TORX BIT.. STRIPPED
TRIED TO OPEN UP THE HOLE WITH A DRILL AND THEN HAMMER A LARGER ALLEN BIT IN.. NOPE

HAD TO F'ING DREMMEL OFF 2 SIDES OF THE BOLT AND USE A ADJUSTABLE WRENCH TO GET IT OFF
WHICH ALSO MENT I HAD TO TRIM THE K24 CHAIN GUIDE DOWN TO GET THE DREMMEL IN AT THE RIGHT ANGLE.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/Untitled.jpg

HAMMERING / GRINDING IS NOT WHAT I WANTED TO BE DOING INSIDE THE DUST SENSITIVE PART OF THE MOTOR

THANKS HONDA.. THANKS ALOT

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/2012-04-25_22-35-28_480.jpg



These style bots are just awful. VW uses these all over thier engines.. which is why i hate working on VW..

working on a vw is basically an exercise in drilling out stripped allen bolts

at least i was able to get it out.

[PAPITUYO326]

I prefer hex heads, but allens are usually ok if you have the right size driver. It can be tempting to use a standard allen key on a metric screw, but that is what usually leads to stripping.

[Ba82Ep3]

It was installed too tight if you were able to strip it out.

Pump chain tensioners are the same between the oil pumps... its the pump chain guide (and chain) that varies between balance shaft and non balance shaft style pumps.

If youre really concerned about the metal, you can go to your local parts store and buy a roll of gasket maker (oil/fuel) for like $5. Make yourself a paper cut gasket to match your oil pan... punch the bolt holes out with a paper hole punch. Install the oil pan with the cut gasket instead of Ultraflange2, with a good oil filter and inexpensive oil. Drive the car for 500 miles REASONABLY. Drop your oil pan and clean all metal residue from the bottom of your oil pan. Reinstall your oil pan with sealant, and use new oil/filter. This will ensure a greater amount of metal flake that may be trapped in the oil gallies will be removed from the system, and not recycled oil change after oil change because you never get the last little bit out of the pan.

Unfortunately, this does not help things if there is metal flake buried in your crank/rod bearings. Aluminum isnt as bad as steel... but metal is metal.

[cyllarus]

Thanks Ba

is there an easy way to drop the pan without removing the subframe? seems like the answer is no.

as far as the allen bolts, i think they were already slightly stripped before i started working. Believe the previous owner tried to get them out, and when he couldnt he just didnt change the guide.

[Ba82Ep3]

Not an easy way... but you can do it on jackstands if you have the really tall ones to hold the car up... and 4 short ones to support the subframe as you lower it with the struts still attached to the knuckles to help support the weight. But the two jackstands holding your car up in the air have to be tall ones so you can still squeeze in under the supported subframe to remove the pan.

[cyllarus]

Update to this ..

Fought through changing the chain guide, and put everything back together.

Started it up and ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbybaunNbA

please ignore my giddy school boy commentary ..

SUCCESS!! ( than you god!...)

There is still a subdued growling noise coming from the lower end of the engine, near where the oil pump is, but its very slight, and sounds more like the normal break in noise i might expect from new guides / new pump.

so lesson to all you kiddes out there..

use the right chain guide
never trust anyone who says they changed something
do it right.. or do it twice..

now for the next challenge..

http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?68820-K24a2-RBB-Intake-Throttle-Cable-Bracket-Fitment&p=963815#post963815

[USAF EP3]

Congrats on getting your engine back to normal!

Something of note:

I've noticed that all the balance shaft equipped engines use the same color oil pump chain guide (K20A3/K24's/K20Z3), maybe it has something to do with it? Because the lighter color and different guide is only seen on the K20A2's and K20Z1's.

[iDom]

I too believe I have a similar issue. I hope mine falls under the category of it being a new pump and it being "normal". Mine isn't nearly as loud as yours was, but.. Here's a picture of the setup as it was being put together. Before I bought the engine, the builder assured me that it had been properly modified and all a2 components had been used, but the oil pump chain guide is not white; it's orange. Idk if that is a sign or what..

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7205/6935502223_e40bafa8de_z.jpg

Here's the video I took. Don't mind the formatting.. Stupid iPhone


http://youtu.be/55T8nuIp85U

I'm stressing more than finals week over this shit. I should've waited til I had another car to do all this. I sure as hell hope I don't have to pull the engine and get more parts. I literally have zero options besides paying to rent a car as far as another source of transportation.

[iDom]

Anyone?

[PAPITUYO326]

I think you already nailed the answer. Your noise isn't as loud because he at least swapped half of the tensioner/guide setup. Swap it out and see if it dies down.

[iDom]

I think you already nailed the answer. Your noise isn't as loud because he at least swapped half of the tensioner/guide setup. Swap it out and see if it dies down.

I know it's hard to completely see the chain guide as it's partially covered, but doesn't the set up look appropriate? I google imaged a ton of set ups and they all look spot on to mine. I guess my question is, what "else" could cause this sound?

[cyllarus]

pay close attention to the ANGLE of the last "support line" cast into the chain guide.
look closely at the slight "kink" in the chain in the first picture posted.

Its my opinion that the chain guide you have in the picture you posted IS a k20 (correct) chain guide.

the noise certainly sounds the same as mine.

once i repaired everything and put it all back together there WAS still a whine, but is was much quieter, and has diminished over the past couple of weeks, but is still there.. its possible this is the noise you are hearing.. but it seems a bit too loud to be the "normal" new oil pump noise (if such a thing actually exists)

on the "what else" question.

to confirm that my noise was certainly tied to the MOTOR i did 2 things:
1- removed the accessory drive belt and ran the motor for 10-20 seconds with it off. if the noise stops, its one of your accessories.. if it continues, its not. ( note you are running with no water pump or alternator, so only run for just long enough to confirm the result)

2- if the noise is not accessory related, run the motor for a few moments with the drive belt off, and the CLUTCH IN. at this point the ONLY THING ROTATING is the crank, cams, and chains. If the noise is still there.. its coming from one of those components.

good luck.. if you are still stumped feel free to call me and we can talk about my "adventure" 813.417.3945

[cyllarus]

took another listen to you noise with my headphones on and i think you actually might be ok..

the whine i was getting was LOUD.. VERY LOUD.. loud enough that you had to almost yell to talk to someone if you were standing right in front of the car

yours does not seem that loud.

here is the my motor.. fixed..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbybaunNbA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

please ignore giddy schoolboy commentary.

listen carefully with a set of headphones on and you will hear that my motor, with the correct oil pump whines also. take note how loud it is compared to me talking. its much quieter...

then go back and watch the original vid of it whining with the wrong guide.. its an obvious difference when you listen to the 2 vids back to back

if your noise is around the same "loud" as this.. it could be normal.

Again.. feel free to call if with questions

[iDom]

took another listen to you noise with my headphones onand i think you actually might be ok..

the whine i was getting was LOUD.. VERY LOUD.. loud enough that you had to almost yell to talk to someone if you were standing right infront of the car

yours does not seem that loud.

here is the my motor.. fixed..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbybaunNbA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

please ignore giddy schoolboy comentary.

listen carefully with a set of headphones on and you will hear that mine whines also. take note how loud it is compared to me talking.


if your noise is around the same "loud" as this.. it could be normal.

Again.. feel free to call if with questions

Oh yea I see what you mean. That makes me feel a lot lot better. I would say that my noise has also gotten a bit quieter and first start up was Thursday night so I'm hoping it will continue to get better.

Thanks a ton. I love ephatch. Such helpful people.. Best car website I've ever come across.

Now I just have to address my exhaust situation... -__-

[cyllarus]

lol... same thing here! ( with exhaust)

i have a JDM dc5 R header and it fits.. but is laying right agaist the bottom of the car.. very loud...

looking for headers as we speak....

keep at it.. i took my car to a local autox this week and ran with the new motor.. HUGE DIFFERENCE to the a3.. improved my lap times by 1.7 sec on a ~35 sec course..

all this work is worth it...

[iDom]

lol... same thing here! ( with exhaust)

i have a JDM dc5 R header and it fits.. but is laying right agaist the bottom of the car.. very loud...

looking for headers as we speak....

keep at it.. i took my car to a local autox this week and ran with the new motor.. HUGE DIFFERENCE to the a3.. improved my lap times by 1.7 sec on a ~35 sec course..

all this work is worth it...

I have a JRRH with a HKS HiPower catback and test pipe with the 75A mounts and it rests on the underside of my car as well and causes it to be VERY loud.. I also don't have any springs between my header/test pipe.. It's just directly bolted on.. So that may be a contributing factor.. I'm up in the air as to what I should do about it because the ride would literally improve 85% if I could get the exhaust to not touch the bottom of my car.