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kaotik78
05-01-2012, 02:44 PM
Having a difficult time trying to narrow down the play I have in my front end.

New CV axles, ball joints, tie rod ends, skunk2 pro-c coil overs, timken wheel bearings, energy suspension bushings in LCA. All bolts/nuts torqued to factory specs. I'm scratching my head on this one.

My gut is telling me it's the wheel bearings, but they're brand new, hub nut was torqued to 134lbs per the manual. I'm at a loss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoJI0iaRUBk&feature=youtu.be

sleepy ep3
05-01-2012, 05:02 PM
I thought this was a thread about masterbation. Boy was I wrong. Hope you get it figured out

kaotik78
05-02-2012, 03:49 AM
I thought this was a thread about masterbation. Boy was I wrong. Hope you get it figured out

Thanks for the laugh, I did need that!

kaotik78
05-02-2012, 12:47 PM
Well I got home today and took the wheels off and checked everything. I've gotta start eliminating some variables here. The only thing that's new since this entire fiasco are the coil overs. I've put a wrench on all the tightening nuts on the perch and spring, they're tight. So tight, I started to bend one of the wrenches. Can't tightenen down the strut top hat nut since there's no way to do it, it was done at the factory, should be bolt up and go. The only other option now is to take one side off, put the factory strut back on, bolt everything up, put the wheel on and give it a test at 12 and 6 etc etc. If the play's still there, well then it's time to look back at those wheel bearings that I put in.

kaotik78
05-07-2012, 09:43 AM
Quick follow up with this fiasco. I double checked everything. Torque on everything is to spec. 12 and 6 play is tight. Play at 3 and 9 is still there. The tie-rods are brand new, came with the Skunk2 Pro-C coilover kit I just put on. When the tire on either side is moved at 3 and 9, there's play, which is not going to fly come state inspection time. The problem is, is that there seems to be some play between the strut body and the strut piston itself. What irritates me is that these are brand new coil overs, and have maybe a few hundred miles on them so far. No oil is leaking out from the strut, which is making me scratch my head now if it really is the struts. Well to put that theory to bed, I put my stock suspension back on, did the same test at 3 and 9 and lone behold, no play. So, I've gone back to Skunk2 inquiring about what's the next step with regards to these being brand new coil overs, is there anything else I could test/check. Have to wait and see. I'm hoping it's something stupid but my gut is telling me that it's something else. On a side note, they ride awesome!!!! I wish the play was not there though!

USAF EP3
05-07-2012, 09:59 AM
Quick follow up with this fiasco. I double checked everything. Torque on everything is to spec. 12 and 6 play is tight. Play at 3 and 9 is still there. The tie-rods are brand new, came with the Skunk2 Pro-C coilover kit I just put on. When the tire on either side is moved at 3 and 9, there's play, which is not going to fly come state inspection time. The problem is, is that there seems to be some play between the strut body and the strut piston itself. What irritates me is that these are brand new coil overs, and have maybe a few hundred miles on them so far. No oil is leaking out from the strut, which is making me scratch my head now if it really is the struts. Well to put that theory to bed, I put my stock suspension back on, did the same test at 3 and 9 and lone behold, no play. So, I've gone back to Skunk2 inquiring about what's the next step with regards to these being brand new coil overs, is there anything else I could test/check. Have to wait and see. I'm hoping it's something stupid but my gut is telling me that it's something else. On a side note, they ride awesome!!!! I wish the play was not there though!

At least you found out that it wasn't any of the other new parts that were faulty. Looking back at your video, when you shot the angle towards the suspension, it looks like the pivot point of the play was no where near the hub or LCA, I wanted to comment before but I didn't have a clue as to where else the play could've came from.

kaotik78
05-07-2012, 04:10 PM
At least you found out that it wasn't any of the other new parts that were faulty. Looking back at your video, when you shot the angle towards the suspension, it looks like the pivot point of the play was no where near the hub or LCA, I wanted to comment before but I didn't have a clue as to where else the play could've came from.

At this point now I'm really thinking outside the box.

Here's another video showing the passenger side front, with my hands on the wheel at 3 and 9 pushing side to side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Uo3q1TJ0s&feature=youtu.be

You can see how much movement is in the strut it seems. Putting your finger on the strut piston, you can feel play as well. What's odd is that these are brand new, and not leaking any oil. Tie-rods are not moving either when I move the wheel, just the strut body itself. I recorded the pillow ball just to be thorough, incase it helped someone at Skunk2, just trying to be as helpfull as I can be since they can't come to the east coast to look at it :)

kaotik78
05-08-2012, 01:00 PM
Another quick update. Since this has been my first set of coil overs, it's been a fun learning experience. Someone had suggested I try to jack the LCA up under the car to simulate a load on the strut. I had done this previously but the saddle on my floor jack couldn't get close enough to the balljoint to really lift the strut up. I used a 2x2 piece of solid oak and put that on the saddle and got it close enough to the ball joint as I could and lifted the LCA to simulate the car being on the ground. I checked for play again at 3 and 9, this time... wait for it..... the play is gone.

Now I'm not sure if this is good or not, come state inspection time if I get someone who's very thorough and checks for wheel play at 3 and 9 with no load on the strut they'll say it's a bad strut possibly.

Why my OEM suspension doesn't exhibit this "play" is beyond me. At this point I'm still waiting to hear back from Skunk2 about this. I've sent them some video and a detailed explanation. Hopefully, it will come back to me that this is all ok and as designed as I've come across other threads on various forms/makes/models with coilover owners exhibiting the same symptoms when they actually do a wheel check.

whatsvtec
05-13-2012, 10:03 AM
Kaotik? Do you have an Engine Torque Dampener on your car? I'm having the same problem as you and am trying to figure out if it's just a flaw in the strut, or if my Ingalls ETD could have exacerbated the issue by design.

tinman5
05-13-2012, 12:10 PM
There should be no play in the strut housing. I am running on Tein SS on both my EP and S13 as well as custom Tein Basics on my GTI and none of them exhibit any play. And I am very consistent as to removing the wheels and cleaning/lubing/visually inspecting all my suspension bits as any aftermarket piece should be.
I sincerely hope you get this resolved.
I cant say with absolute certainty, but I feel the strut housings are missing a top cap around the exposed rod. That is about the only thing I can figure without actually seeing the strut. A simple manufacturer defect.
Again, good luck.

ep3colin
05-13-2012, 12:47 PM
i had the same problem with my coilovers (however they are racelands), the strut housing bolt came loose and i tightened it with locktite and a vice and i also thought i had a wheel bearing issue, call customer service and get the strut replaced.

whatsvtec
05-13-2012, 01:02 PM
Colin, did tightening the cap on the strut housing fix the issue of play in the coilover? I ordered 2 new struts from raceland, but if I can fix it without that would be awesome. LMK!

ep3colin
05-13-2012, 01:26 PM
Colin, did tightening the cap on the strut housing fix the issue of play in the coilover? I ordered 2 new struts from raceland, but if I can fix it without that would be awesome. LMK!

im no expert when it comes to the construction of a strut but i feel like i may have lost oil or a some type of part as i left the issue of the "raceland knock" for awhile, but as to your answer no it did not fix it, it created less play but there was some still there, when raceland sent me a new shock it seemed like they revised it and jb welded the nut on.

dave from raceland was pretty cool and i sent him a video of the issue after i tightened the nut and he sent me a new strut and all i had to do was pay a couple bucks for shipping my old strut housing in.

kaotik78
05-14-2012, 07:12 AM
Kaotik? Do you have an Engine Torque Dampener on your car? I'm having the same problem as you and am trying to figure out if it's just a flaw in the strut, or if my Ingalls ETD could have exacerbated the issue by design.

Hey sorry for not getting back sooner! Yes I do have a Ingalls torque damper, however that would not impact the suspension having play in it. That damper just prevents play back and forth when the motor moves back and forth from acceleration/deceleration.

I've beaten myself up enough with this, ultimately in the end Skunk2 felt to eliminate some variables that I try replacing the supplied tie-rods with a fresh set from them. Possibly these could be the culprit, either that or I just have excessive play in my rack's inner tie rod's. They've sent the tie rod's so I'll swap them out and take it from there.

On a positive note these have been so much fun to drive with, very firm and aggressive, I do like them but feel I won't be able to keep them for long cause the roads where I am on 12k springs are not very forgiving at all.

whatsvtec
05-14-2012, 03:47 PM
I thought you determined the problem was inner strut movement? I know that's what my problem is, I should be getting my struts swapped out this weekend. :mbiggrin: (I love raceland customer service!)

Get your front end on jack stands, take off your wheels, and shake it around with no load on the strut, then add load using a floor jack and try again. You should be able to find out what's causing the problem pretty quickly.

Euro-Yellow-Ep3
05-14-2012, 05:55 PM
never seen this b4, in for updates

makavelibranded
05-14-2012, 06:08 PM
On a positive note these have been so much fun to drive with, very firm and aggressive, I do like them but feel I won't be able to keep them for long cause the roads where I am on 12k springs are not very forgiving at all.

Are the shocks adjustable? I have the Buddy Club race specs, 10k front, 16k rear, no front sway, ctr rear sway and its not to bad here even on ruff roads. IDK If there new but the springs may need a break in period to soften them up.

kaotik78
05-15-2012, 04:06 AM
I thought you determined the problem was inner strut movement? I know that's what my problem is, I should be getting my struts swapped out this weekend. :mbiggrin: (I love raceland customer service!)

Get your front end on jack stands, take off your wheels, and shake it around with no load on the strut, then add load using a floor jack and try again. You should be able to find out what's causing the problem pretty quickly.

I've been told by the wife to give it a rest for a few days, I've never been able to sort this out still other than with the wheel's on and putting the strut under load the play went away. I've sent videos in to Skunk2 hoping to give them a better idea/visual of what's going on. It's difficult to diagnose when not up close and personal. I wish I had a week off I'd drive out there to show them first hand. The last resort is going to be to take them off the car and ship them out at my expense to have them looked at, they can put them on someone else's ep3 to see what the problem is. I'd love to figure it out on my own but if need be I can ship them out to them.

This weekend I can pull the front wheels off and check for play while putting the strut under load. The lower locking nut is on TIGHT, so much that I used a long piece of pipe as an extension on the provided wrench to really get it snug, I bent the wrench a bit. So they're on there very snug.

To add insult to injury the Mrs absolutely does not like the ride with the new coil overs, so it seems just as soon as I will get it fixed I'll have to figure out what to do next but that's for another thread :) Thanks all for the input and outside the box thinking on this!

bchaney
05-15-2012, 02:44 PM
I had the same issue with my progress coils. Progress said its normal, alignment shop said it wasn't. I prob have a vid posted here somewhere. In the end I just told the shop to align it w/o warranty because in the compressed position it has no play.

This is what I think is going on: if you look at the construction of a strut, there is a ring on the bottom of the rod within the strut housing. When the rod is compressed into the housing it is supported in 2 places - one at the ring on the bottom of the rod and one where the rod comes thru the top of the housing. In that position it has much less play than when it is totally unloaded and basically only supported in one place (since the inner ring is right up against the top of the housing). My guess is that OEM struts have a stop on the rod so that when they are unloaded the rod is still supported in 2 places. Aftermarket struts can't get away with this since they are shorter / have less travel.

I could be wrong on this but this is my best guess after lots of research. Maybe someone w Konis can post pics of the OEM strut after it was cut apart.

bchaney
05-15-2012, 06:39 PM
I was wrong, I actually posted my issue on CRSX - http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=786979

And heres the vid of how much play there is in the unloaded state - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEb4Qsc-rQ0

I just rotated my tires this weekend after 12k miles and there's no abnormal tire wear and I have no issues with the car pulling one way or the other.

whatsvtec
05-15-2012, 09:11 PM
bchaney, thanks for the video and input! My strut has WAY more play than that, something more like 10* or more, so I definitely need new ones. I wouldn't be too worried about what I saw in your video. That helps a lot to know what's normal and what is not :thumbu:

bchaney
05-16-2012, 05:53 AM
I would say jack up the LCA a couple inches and see if there's still play (if you haven't already... sounds like the OP already has). That's what it took to convince me that everything was OK. Your strut will never be in the completely unloaded state while driving, so a bit of play in this state shouldn't have any real-world consequences.

kaotik78
05-17-2012, 04:36 AM
i had the same problem with my coilovers (however they are racelands), the strut housing bolt came loose and i tightened it with locktite and a vice and i also thought i had a wheel bearing issue, call customer service and get the strut replaced.

I don't think they're going to do that since both the left and right ones do this. They did it new out of the box. Still waiting on the replacement tie rods now. If that doesn't solve it, then I'll send them back and then let Skunk evaluate them. Been a month of this and I'm getting a tad fed up now.

ep3_civic_si
09-30-2012, 11:19 AM
did you ever get this resolved? this is happening to me only on a 3 to 9 position. when i shake it at a 12 to 6 position the wheels are locked, so i figured it's not a bearing issue. only thing i have to do now is try to replace the inner struts and see if that'll help? did you do that as well? trying to get feedback as if this did not help i don't want to waste me time. thanks for any input!.

update: I just replaced the inner struts, now it's fine. I hope it works out for you as well...