Brake upgrade help

[EP3NightHawk]

Hello,
I drive an 02 civic si and the pads and rotors need to be replaced, so I've decided to upgrade. I was looking into a 5 lug swap but just found they make a willwood bbk for the 4 lug si's! I think this will be the way I'll go now because I think it's a good price and I don't think the 5 lug swap would help me stop that much better. Do you guys think the 5 lug swap would help THAT much? Also, where is the best place to buy the willwood kit with everything included (cheapest)? Pads and all. What all do I need to make sure is included? I know I will need the brake lines. Thanks! (I am ordering either today or tomorrow.)

[tinman5]

I use thefind dotcom to do a lot of comparison shopping, Google and Yahoo search as well if its a substantial purchase, for me anything over $500ish.

As far as five lug goes, honestly its subjective. Honda is to the import after market as the old Chevy small block is to the automotive after market in general. There is the absolute minimal that you can find for a five lug Honda that does not exist for the four. About the only real issue that comes with going 5 lug is attaining new wheels. For me personally, I simply find 5 lug more aesthetically correct. I am kinda fanatical about five spoke wheels (owning no less than 5 and a half sets between three cars). Outside of sourcing the actual brake components consisting of Type S components with new rotors and pads as well as overhauling the calipers myself, it was a simple matter of rounding up the least aggressive wheels from my Nissan. New Dunlops, an afternoon with the wrenches, done and done.

[EP3NightHawk]

I use thefind dotcom to do a lot of comparison shopping, Google and Yahoo search as well if its a substantial purchase, for me anything over $500ish.

As far as five lug goes, honestly its subjective. Honda is to the import after market as the old Chevy small block is to the automotive after market in general. There is the absolute minimal that you can find for a five lug Honda that does not exist for the four. About the only real issue that comes with going 5 lug is attaining new wheels. For me personally, I simply find 5 lug more aesthetically correct. I am kinda fanatical about five spoke wheels (owning no less than 5 and a half sets between three cars). Outside of sourcing the actual brake components consisting of Type S components with new rotors and pads as well as overhauling the calipers myself, it was a simple matter of rounding up the least aggressive wheels from my Nissan. New Dunlops, an afternoon with the wrenches, done and done.

Eh, I don't really care if it has 4 or 5 lugs. I was just considering the 5 lug for bigger brakes and so I could get some newer Acura rsx base wheels. But I was thinking it be cheaper and just as good to do the willwood bbk 4 lug.

[tinman5]

It does seem that there is a more vast selection of five lug wheels. I can't imagine a BBK for the Civic that would require anything bigger than a 17" wheel at the most. The issue I am currently struggling with is that I like the look of a 16" wheel, but the 225/50 tire I am running looks friggin huge. I will probably go up to a 17 at some point though, maybe step up to a 235/40 tire if I get my horsespowers right.

[EP3NightHawk]

Ok, I found a guy selling a Full type s 5 lug swap for $400. Seems like a good deal! Or I could stay with 4 lug and get willwood bbk. But I think the 5 lug bbk's can be 2" bigger. Any suggestions? If I do the 5 lug swap I would need to find some newer model base rsx wheels to go with it.


It does seem that there is a more vast selection of five lug wheels. I can't imagine a BBK for the Civic that would require anything bigger than a 17" wheel at the most. The issue I am currently struggling with is that I like the look of a 16" wheel, but the 225/50 tire I am running looks friggin huge. I will probably go up to a 17 at some point though, maybe step up to a 235/40 tire if I get my horsespowers right.

It does seem that way. I plan on getting some wide 17s after I do the k24 swap.

[Her-Name's-Ally]

I agree with tinman if you upgrade to 5 lug you can get the rsx rotors and calipers... only problem is the wheels

[powdbyrice]

id go 5 lug swap with upgraded pads.

you'll probably stop better with that setup than the BBK.

better wheel options with the 5lug swap.

05-06 rsx-s wheels ftw.

[tinman5]

While I do agree the Type S brakes are an upgrade over the stockers, I feel something is off. I am going to hunt down a Type S proportioning valve that will hopefully settle down the ABS system. At max driving there is a point at which the ABS becomes very apparent and in my case, kind of unsettling. This point lacks consistency though so at times I am expecting juddering from the nose that doesnt come and then there are times when it dies happen and I am not fully prepared for it. I dont like ABS.

That said, my brakes perform very well for daily driving with ceramic pads from the parts store. Even through a couple of random spirited runs the pads held up very well. Usually when I'm gonna act the fool I replace the pads with Axxis Metal Masters.

[Her-Name's-Ally]

Im looking to upgrade to RSX rotors and Calipers withen the next 1.5 monthes or so if you dont get them by then I will let you know how it feels. my buddy has an 02 so it will be easy to compare

[Zzyzx]

id go 5 lug swap with upgraded pads.

you'll probably stop better with that setup than the BBK.

better wheel options with the 5lug swap.

05-06 rsx-s wheels ftw.

the only upgrade you'll see with larger pads and rotors, type S or BBK, is an increase in thermal capacity of the brake system. Your stopping distances will have remained more or less unchanged (fiddling with brake bias will show differences).

Repeat after me "your brakes don't stop the car, your tires do"

[tinman5]

the only upgrade you'll see with larger pads and rotors, type S or BBK, is an increase in thermal capacity of the brake system. Your stopping distances will have remained more or less unchanged (fiddling with brake bias will show differences).

Repeat after me "your brakes don't stop the car, your tires do"

While the science if that statement is true and undeniable, it is also a general statement. It is when you consider the lever arm of the braking system (that is rarely, if ever mentioned with the statement) that a proper argument can be made either for or against a BBK or stock braking system with better pads etc..

That being said, in a word, the factory braking system on the EP sucks. It sucks for regular people with regular driving styles. For aggressive peoples with more aggressive driving styles, the stock braking system really sucks. It sucks beyond the point of "better tires, upgraded pads and lines" the company line as it were. Its not just the EP either. Several Hondas around the turn of the century were engineered with what seems like longer and longer braking distances. A factory fresh EP would stop from 60 mph in the neighborhood of 140 feet. The Wilwood kit with good summer tires will stop the same car in the low 120 foot range and a proper suspension on summer tires has reigned in the EP in UNDER 120 feet consistently. None of these numbers are something I made up, its all searcheable. My opinions on the stock braking system however are my own, and coincidentally shared by....a damn lot of people.

[Lucid Moments]

While the science if that statement is true and undeniable, it is also a general statement. It is when you consider the lever arm of the braking system (that is rarely, if ever mentioned with the statement) that a proper argument can be made either for or against a BBK or stock braking system with better pads etc..

That being said, in a word, the factory braking system on the EP sucks. It sucks for regular people with regular driving styles. For aggressive peoples with more aggressive driving styles, the stock braking system really sucks. It sucks beyond the point of "better tires, upgraded pads and lines" the company line as it were. Its not just the EP either. Several Hondas around the turn of the century were engineered with what seems like longer and longer braking distances. A factory fresh EP would stop from 60 mph in the neighborhood of 140 feet. The Wilwood kit with good summer tires will stop the same car in the low 120 foot range and a proper suspension on summer tires has reigned in the EP in UNDER 120 feet consistently. None of these numbers are something I made up, its all searcheable. My opinions on the stock braking system however are my own, and coincidentally shared by....a damn lot of people.

The problem with your examples is that you don't isolate the braking system. The Wilwood kit with good summer tires and a proper suspension on summer tires. Do you notice the difference, its the tires. You are making Zzyzx's point for him. For a valid comparison you would have to compare a stock EP on good summer tires to a ep with a Wilwood kit on the same good summer tires, or a stock ep on good summer tires vs an eEP with a good suspension on summer tires. As long as a braking system has the ability to lock the tires up (or engage the anti-lock) then it is stopping the car as fast as it is possible for the car to be stopped.

I have a Wilwood kit on my car. So don't think I have anything against upgrading your brakes. But the reason I went with the Wilwood kit was brake fade. I don't believe it stopped my car any sooner than the stock brakes did, the first time. Its the tenth time that was my issue.

So if you want to upgrade your brakes do it. I've got nothing against it, but don't kid yourself about why you are doing it.

[Zzyzx]

Lucid Moments covered it pretty well, we have been discussing such things for around ten years after all...

I'll just add one thing, and I'll try to be as clear as possible. There are two friction systems within your brake system. the brake pad & rotor interface and the Tire & road interface. Altering the maximum brake torque output of one does not alter the maximum brake torque output of the other.