View Full Version : cam ?cam gear install ?????
hey guys im having trouble aligning the hash marks on the cam gears to seat evenly across in horizontal . i line them up but when i tie down the cam reatainer or caps the tension from the valve springs cause the cams to rotate and the rotation is throwing off the the marks so i cant set the engines timing correct i looked and theres a cam gear lock tool can i use this tool with our ep3 since we have sprockets ? any other ways to hold the cams in place ? trick tips links anything is welcome thanks !
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 07:54 AM
On the other side of the cams you have the cam phasing plates for the cam sensors. You will have a hole in each one that is 5mm. You can insert a 5mm pin through that hole into the cam tower on both the IN and EX cams to lock the cams in place. Let me see if i can find a pic...
Ok i found it... i used two water temp sensors to illustrate what you could do in a pinch. It locks the cams in time, so you can easily wrap the chain around each gear and properly set the TCT without worry of the chain skipping on the lower sprocket.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n562/dwms73/408662338_photobucket_1801_.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n562/dwms73/408662338_photobucket_1797_.jpg
You HAVE to use 5mm sized whatever you put in there. You cant have play.
yeah i seen the wholes you are talking about but what kinda pin should i use ?
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 08:05 AM
Two drillbits the same size... two water temp sensors (in the head just below in the upper pic), anything of substantial metal. It cant be soft, as the valvetrain will cause it to bend...
thanks ill give it a try ive heard about cam gear lock tools but i think thats for the older cam gears that use a timming belt not a chain thanks again
water temp sensors lol love it !!!!
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 08:13 AM
lol hey man... sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do!
Temp sensors... free. Drill bits are 2$... the tool is more costly.
i feel ya on that ive done some crazy stuff while working on cars but whatever gets the job done hey when you get everything lined up and tightened down with all the marks lining up the engine timing should be on correct ? do you by any chance know how many time you gotta turn the crank pulley befor all the marks line up again to check if the timming is correct ? or do you know of a way to double check if the timming is correct ?
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 09:27 AM
The dark links on the chain are irrelevant... just worry about the timing marks on the cam gears and the sprocket/timing cover. I dunno if you have the timing cover off or not. If you dont, and you can only compare the arrow on the timing cover to the line on the CP... then use your phone to take a pic BEFORE you pull the pins out of the phasing plates. You need a before and after shot to compare once you turn the engine over by hand.
Turn the engine over to the right only (clockwise), and you really only need to do it till the timing marks line up on the cam gears. If you move too fast and go PAST the marks... DO NOT TURN IT BACKWARDS. Turn the engine over again until the marks line up. Keep in mind the marks that point at each other should be level with the head (not level with the ground)... k engines lean back once installed... so it can mess with your head if this is the first time youve done it.
As long as the crank keyway is 90 degrees to the head (and you havent turned the crank out of TDC on #1), and the cam timing marks line up properly... then youre timing is gonna be right. NOW... if you are reusing your timing chain and guides... you WILL notice the CP might not be dead on with the arrow on the timing cover. This is normal because you reused parts that have wear, and the CP and arrow will only line up perfecty with new parts (i had one occasion... and i dunno if it was a problem with the marking on the CP or what... but i went through that engine 4 times and the timing was dead on everywhere else but the CP and timing cover).
ok i get it the only thing by timming cover do you mean the timming chain cover and im not sure what cp means "you can only compare the arrow on the timing cover to the line on the CP." cp = ?
?
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 09:39 AM
CP=crank pulley
And yes timing cover=timing chain cover
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 09:40 AM
Good lookin out on the question Los. :)
¶SK¬
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 09:53 AM
Hey Ba82ep3
This is how it ended up looking for me and Los. The only thing is that I would turn the engine over clock wise quite a few times and they never lined up again.
The thing I did when Los wasnt around. I ended up undoing all of the Cam shaft holders. Re mounted the cams. Then I ended up tightening by hand as far as I could the bolts holding the cam shaft holders then I added the Timing Chain Tensioner(TCT) with the guides etc...http://img.tapatalk.com/b8ffb6f4-0c31-fac4.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/b8ffb6f4-0c44-74f5.jpg
The CP was TDC(Top Dead Center) and the punch out was on the darker chain link as well as at the top. With the cams:
http://img.tapatalk.com/b8ffb6f4-0c8a-6cbc.jpg
Then I torqued down the Entire Sequence for the cam shaft holders and It didnt move at all... I didnt check the two 5mm punch out holes at the other side of the cams.
Then I turned the engine clock wise like I said probably a good 20times. Never lined up again. The I turned it counter clock wise and it lined up to whereI started... What now... Take it all apart... Start by holding down the 5mm holes and torquing the cam shaft holders again... Or do the timing chain like I did or...Leave it as is and continue....
http://img.tapatalk.com/b8ffb6f4-0d6f-9ee9.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/b8ffb6f4-0d7f-49a9.jpg
Any help. We would be very greatful. :smile:
¶SK¬
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 09:56 AM
p.s. I know I over did it on the liquid sealant Lol.
¶SK¬
ok gotcha Ba82Ep3 thanks for the great info and your welcome sk
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 10:14 AM
Youre gonna hate me... pull that timing cover off. lol
Remove the chain, the upper chain guide, the chain tensioner (well remove the right bolt on the tensoner and leave the left bolt installed but loose so you can rotate the tensioner up and away from the guide), and then be sure the dot on the lower sprocket is lined up right with the keyway slot up (90 degrees to the head). Theres an arrow for the dot to line up with (and this should only fit one way anyways... but were double checking cause timing is something you dont wanna eff up).
Install the cam gears. Pin the cam phase plates. You should be able to run the chain from the lower sprocket up/over the intake cam gear, across the exhaust cam gear, and leave your slack on the chain tensioner side. Rotate the tensioner down and let the tensioner press against the guide. Install the right tensioner bolt and finger tighten both of them. Pull the pin on the tensioner so it presses against the guide. All slack should be gone. Install the upper guide. Pull the cam phase plate pins.
Rotate clockwise with the CP bolt... watch the marks on the cam gears till they line up like the pic below...
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n562/dwms73/408662338_photobucket_3859_.jpg
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 10:23 AM
Actually i can see your arrow and dot on the lower sprocket lined up. You arent allowing the chain to slip on the lower sprocket as you wrap the chain around are you?
You need to replace that upper chain guide as well. Snag a k20z3 upper chain guide (looks like mine in the pic), its a lot longer.
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 10:42 AM
Actually i can see your arrow and dot on the lower sprocket lined up. You arent allowing the chain to slip on the lower sprocket as you wrap the chain around are you?
You need to replace that upper chain guide as well. Snag a k20z3 upper chain guide (looks like mine in the pic), its a lot longer.
lol..Im out of time to buy one... This is a stock k20a3. Im on a deadline to have it done Saturday 730am for sure.
Everything is lined up... On the engine but like I said when I turn it clock wise it never lands again . But the cams are lined up and the bottom cp punch hole was lined up with the 3rd darker chain link.:-/ Ill try again all of this when I get Home. By the way I wont hate you lol. I dont mind dismantling it all again. :smile: Nice Garage that you have by the way. :)
¶SK¬
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 10:47 AM
Wait.. you mean the black chain links never line up? Or the cam gear marks never line up?
We are reusing the chain and we were able to line up all three of the black marks on the chain to the dots on the sprockets one for each cam gear and the one for the crank gear also but when we tightened everything up the cams rotated cuz we didnt know about the two holes in the back of the cam to hold ithem in place . But the timming should be right if :1 the marks in chain line up to the dots on all three gears:2 the hash marks on the cam gears are even across horizontally parallel to the head and line up to the timing chain cover correct ?
And what sk ment was that after all was tightened up and lined up he turned the crank pulley over a couple times and watched the black marks and they never landed on the arrows on the cams again, but they were lined up at the start befor he turned the crank
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 11:00 AM
Wait.. you mean the black chain links never line up? Or the cam gear marks never line up?
the cam gears and the cp punch hole lined up with the black chain links when I torqued everything down but when I manually cranked the engine. The black Chain links never lined up again as I posted in the long post. I had to turn the cp counter clockwise to get it to re line up. The only thing I havent checked that should be lined up are the 5mm punch holes.on the other side of the Cams.
¶SK¬
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 11:02 AM
The black links are irrelevant, and you can turn the engine over and over and over and you likely wont see them line up again before your arm falls off. What matters are the timing marks on the cam gears, and the lower sprocket. As long as the chain doesnt slip off the lower sprocket as you finish install, then youll be fine.
So at this point, leave the timing cover on (dont take anything apart), remove the CP and install the CP bolt. Turn the engine over until the cam gear marks line up, and the keyway on the crank should be pointing straight up. If so then youre golden, and no more work is needed.
OK GOTCHA THANKS Ba82Ep3 i really appreciate the help i was a lil lost im not too familiar with chain timing but from the info you just shared ill be able to get it ill let you know how it all turns out its all for the engine sk put in this post thanks again
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 11:20 AM
The black links are irrelevant, and you can turn the engine over and over and over and you likely wont see them line up again before your arm falls off. What matters are the timing marks on the cam gears, and the lower sprocket. As long as the chain doesnt slip off the lower sprocket as you finish install, then youll be fine.<br />
<br />
So at this point, leave the timing cover on (dont take anything apart), remove the CP and install the CP bolt. Turn the engine over until the cam gear marks line up, and the keyway on the crank should be pointing straight up. If so then youre golden, and no more work is needed.
lol..Mos def True on the Arm Falling off... I turned and turned like crazy. at TDC. Everything is lined up and by Checking the punch hole on the crank and the Arrow on the Block you mean its good to go... If all of those line up. Then the engine should be good. :)Ill double check all of that in 7 hours when I get home. :smile. Ill post up pictures.
¶SK¬
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 11:20 AM
OK GOTCHA THANKS Ba82Ep3 i really appreciate the help i was a lil lost im not too familiar with chain timing but from the info you just shared ill be able to get it ill let you know how it all turns out its all for the engine sk put in this post thanks again
:thumbu: We got this.
¶SK¬
yeah we had it right with the exception of not being able to hold the cams but it all cake now
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 11:35 AM
Aight. Cool deal guys. : )
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 01:31 PM
Aight. Cool deal guys. : )
This is what I did to it yesterday which you see in the picture. Ill believe you that the black chain links wont match..Ill trust you. Everything else is like these two pix.
Sorry for the oil stains:
CP=
http://img.tapatalk.com/b8ffcbc5-4094-8521.jpg
Cam Gears=
http://img.tapatalk.com/b8ffcbc5-40b6-2f04.jpg
¶SK¬
Ba82Ep3
07-31-2012, 02:07 PM
Yep those two pix matter...
SkareKrow
07-31-2012, 08:26 PM
Yep those two pix matter...
Here is a video. I took instead of pictures. Everything seems lined up other the timing chain..But the punch holes at 1:15 dont seem to line up as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJqvMpW-u6Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player
But TDC looks as if its still there. When You said to remove the CP, I cant see the sprocket anyways because the TC is on..Hell if I have to dismantle I will. Want to make sure its properly timed.
¶SK¬
Ba82Ep3
08-01-2012, 04:47 AM
It looks right to me... again youre reusing some parts so... its not gonna be dead nuts on.
Did you ever try to compress your TC tensioner by hand? Meaning... did you ever try and compress the piston into the body of the tensioner? If the spring inside the tensioner is weak... as you turn the engine over by hand the tensioner will have less physical control over the slack in the chain. Im assuming you have no sparkplugs in it as you turn it over... and you are turning it slowly as you approach a compression cycle. As soon as the compression cycle ends the crank will try and turn freely (valvetrain transferring spring tension through the cams/timing chain to the bottom end and turning it over)... because you no longer have clockwise tension on the crank pully, its very similar to turning it counterclockwise... so there will be some slack in the chain and the EX gear will look like it isnt right (there may even be chain slack between the IN and EX cams gears under the upper chain guide), when the IN gear looks right with the crank position. Take it slow...
If you were a 'tooth off', the crank position would clearly be off, if you lined up the cam gear markings. What im seeing is wear tolerance, and possibly a weak timing chain tensioner. FWIW, you can swap the upper chain guide after everything is set. Just pin the cams and pull the two bolts that hold the upper guide in place, and install the new one in reverse. Its 15$ insurance homie...
SkareKrow
08-01-2012, 09:51 AM
I actually did try pushing the piston into the tct. It was really hard. I ended up Vice Gripping the top where the spring is at and pushed it in by hand to hold with a thick needle.(The type of needle you sow jeans etc...) It held it put it in where it belongs and pulled the needle out and two.double check it. I even did the same thing like this youtube video.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-lTdPjnZA4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
¶SK¬
Ba82Ep3
08-01-2012, 10:00 AM
Interesting video... i dont think Honda planned for a crowbar to be used... but OK. :lol:
If the piston was difficult to push into the body of the TCT, and the teeth were in good shape, then id say youre good to go without further ado!
Ba82Ep3
08-01-2012, 10:04 AM
Oh and incidentally... that pic i provided earlier was of all new guides, TCT, and chain. The cam gears were used as was the lower sprocket. If you look closely you can see a litle bit of variance between the markings on the IN and EX gears... thats the wear variance of the used parts, as minimal as it is.
SkareKrow
08-15-2012, 11:30 AM
Ok update. The ep did not start. fail fail fail!:facepalm: Mep..Checked the fuel rail and its got gas. Spark Plugs are autolites since I just wanted to get the ep running for a bit before doing a few tune ups.
Fuses are good. Ive got enough ground unless I am grouding wrong places.
New Battery. Going to checked the Idle Air Control Valve (IACV) today then with all the connections. I also connected an obd2 reader but fail. No codes. MIL is good. :msad: Ill post a video of the grounding and pictures of what everything looks like. Also forgot to mention I replaced the 15amp IG Coil Fuse which was blown but good. Next step:bump: for some good opinions. :thumbu:
¶SK¬
bump car wont start need help with normal start up issues any ideas or suggestions on what to check for ??
SkareKrow
08-17-2012, 10:17 AM
bump car wont start need help with normal start up issues any ideas or suggestions on what to check for ??
Hey los check out that k20a.org thread. Ill post a link.
¶SK¬
SkareKrow
08-20-2012, 08:30 AM
link ?
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=106504
I am updating both posts. :)
¶SK¬
SkareKrow
08-23-2012, 10:27 AM
Update.
Car is running but tossing two codes as it idles from 1k to 2k. Ill post video soon. Also need to order exhaust manifold gasket. :) The reason the car was not turning on is....
Valves were not adjusted properly... I messed up. Since I did a compression test:
Cylinder 1 = 95
Cylinder 2 = 65
Cylinder 3 = 65
Cylinder 4 = 65
They should all be ± around 135psi...
I googled it and on some motorcycles forum said it was adjustment of valves can give bad reading.. Did them an Voila! Ep started. I feel less stressed out. :smile:
Codes CEL throwing:
P0505
P1505
PCV and IACV... Have to figure these two out. :mwink: Car is almost up and running also any aftermarket... Exhaust Manifold Gaskets?
¶SK¬
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