Damper comparison: Mugen SS vs Tokico D-spec/H&R

[ragebomb]

I recently swapped my Mugen Sport Suspension for a used set of Tokico D-specs with H&R springs.

PREVIOUS setup:
Mugen Sport Suspension
~.75" drop


CURRENT setup:
Tokico D-spec adjustable suspension
H&R springs
~2" drop
about 30k miles put on by previous owner
damper adjustment currently set to max firmness

The reason I did this was because while I love the handling of the Mugens, I wish they were a bit lower. The new setup gets me lower.

The Tokico D-specs have adjustable dampers, but even at their most firm, they still don't feel as firm as the Mugens.

If the Mugens were a 10 (on a scale of 10) for firm, I'd say these Tokicos are maybe an 7 to 8... Just driving around town I can feel the car roll and dive a bit more than I'm used to.

I'd like to be able to dial them up to a 10 for the occasional autocross. 7 or 8 is fine for DD.

Does anyone have experience with these setups? Does this comparison sound about right?

My concern is that the Tokicos may be on their way out (in need of a rebuild).

Thanks in advance.

Mugen SS:

http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii455/ragebomb99/ep3/th_DSC09929.jpg (http://s551.photobucket.com/albums/ii455/ragebomb99/ep3/?action=view&current=DSC09929.jpg)

Tokico D-Spec and H&R:

http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii455/ragebomb99/ep3/th_IMG_9394.jpg (http://s551.photobucket.com/albums/ii455/ragebomb99/ep3/?action=view&current=IMG_9394.jpg)

[ragebomb]

Bump. Calling all suspension gurus... :)

[poeticfinesse21]

Honestly...you downgraded :doh: and if you've read anything about the EP's suspension design, you should know that the lower you drop your car, the worse it handles.

[lemonhead228]

yea im sitting on mugen ss and they're pretty stiff for shock and springs but i think its okay for dd.

[StimulisRK]

Honestly...you downgraded :doh: and if you've read anything about the EP's suspension design, you should know that the lower you drop your car, the worse it handles.

I'm not a suspension guru at all, but are the D-Spec's really a downgrade?

It could be the springs on their way out as well. H&R's have higher spring rates than most springs for our car, but I still don't think they're stiff enough (I have them).

And being "too low" will screw up handling, not just any lowering in general. There's a gray area between 1"-2" where you pass the "too low" point and it messes up your geometry. I read a ton of post's by Zyxx and MustClime on here and Honda-Tech awhile back exactly on this subject - Springs, Spring Rates, Dampening, Too Low. I'll try to find it.

EDIT: Found it http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2639666 read away my friend

[poeticfinesse21]

I'm not a suspension guru at all, but are the D-Spec's really a downgrade?

It could be the springs on their way out as well. H&R's have higher spring rates than most springs for our car, but I still don't think they're stiff enough (I have them).

And being "too low" will screw up handling, not just any lowering in general. There's a gray area between 1"-2" where you pass the "too low" point and it messes up your geometry. I read a ton of post's by Zyxx and MustClime on here and Honda-Tech awhile back exactly on this subject - Springs, Spring Rates, Dampening, Too Low. I'll try to find it.

I'm not saying d-specs are bad shocks but you can't compare $500 tokico shocks and $200 springs to a $1100 mugen suspension that was specifically designed for our cars. If you read mustclime's posts carefully, you should know that yes, ANY lowering will affect handling. That "sweet spot" or "gray area" is right between stock height and a 1" drop. As soon as you start to lower your car, the front LCA's start to angle up. At about a 1" drop the LCA is perfectly flat so ideally you want the LCA's at the same angle they're at when the car is at stock height. According to this, even the mugen's are too low. I've read they're a 1.2" to 1.5" drop all around so a 2" drop with H&R springs on softer shocks is even worse. I'm sure the spring rates are higher than stock but no way are they high enough to make up for the 2" of lost suspension travel. I myself am running a full DC5-R suspension which is about the same drop as a-spec or HFP (0.75" drop) but I plan on getting extended ball joints in the future to get my front LCA's at the same angle as when the car is at stock height. I've done my fair share of reading also and suspension is my favorite aspect of modding my car. XXX amount of HP doesn't mean shit if you don't have the suspension and tires to carry it. Check out these threads too, the amount of information is amazing....

http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=563391
http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=569763
http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=573805
http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=565676
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=705705
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=717355&highlight=

^ The PDF file in that last thread is like porn to us suspension guys...

[ragebomb]

Thanks poeticfinesse21, StimulisRK, and lemonhead228 for the feedback!!

Yep I've read the honda-tech thread in the past. Awesome info there. I was aware and agree that lowering too much introduces multiple problems ... including bump steer and toe adjustment problems. Our cars just weren't made to be lowered. Boo.

I'll read the other links that poeticfinesse21 listed too (Thanks btw). I glanced at them and the links are AWESOME, thank you.

I guess my question is really about how to figure out if my Tokico's are blown or not. I guess it's not easy to know unless
a. i find someone who has experience with the 2 setups and can give a comparison
b. i take a ride in a car with brand new Tokico/H&R
c. just wait and see if they get worse :)
d. pay to put them on a strut dyno to see if they perform to Tokico's spec (which they publish in their manual (www.billswebspace.com/TokicoD-Spec_Manual_09.pdf))

I did love my Mugens. The ride was so firm. I didn't like it at first but came to love them. I had them at one autocross day and they really inspired confidence and I felt like I could really toss the car around. Just wish they were lower (which is a cosmetic desire, not a performance one). I may need to just enjoy the current set up for a year until I save up for a set of reputable coilovers with adjustable dampers. That way I could raise up the car (and firm up dampening) for track days and then lower (and soften dampers) for DD. Having a lifetime alignment via Firestone helps big time.

The way they handle now I don't think my Tokico setup would do very well on the track or even autocross; the car would dive/roll so much that I'm sure the tires would be coming in contact with the fenders too much. The car isn't bouncy or floaty, and I definitely can feel it firming up as I adjust the dampener.

Maybe blown shocks wouldn't be adjustable anymore? Or maybe the firmest setting just gradually becomes softer...

[poeticfinesse21]

"Adjustable" shocks don't really adjust stiffness, they just adjust how much the shock rebounds and unless you drive a hardcore race car, it's kind of pointless. You want real adjustable shocks, think the $2000 and up coilovers from tein. If your car is your daily driver, just throw your mugens back on or if you don't have them anymore, go a-spec. It's the perfect balance between performance and comfort. It's either function or form, you can't have both with suspension and don't overlook the most important part of your suspension.....your tires.

[ptriq]

yeah coilover systems that have both bound and rebound adjustments aren't cheap. i currently have buddy club n+'s and i went through being dropped 1.75" to 1.25" and finally .5". personally every time i raised it the car felt more rotatable and didn't push out as much. if i can do it again i would get custom rates springs from GC with custom valved koni yellow dampers.

[rhdsirek4]

im paying for it being super low... im going to get my rack rebuild.. new custom toe bracket and shorter tie rods with ssr reverse endlinks... i hope this will fix my handling issue and make you think twice about going super low...youre going to have to spend more cheese than just suspension.

[ragebomb]

Fwiw I have an update.

I eventually emailed Tokico, who offered to talk me through my questions with a technician. That was super cool of them to do, especially since I'm not the original owner.

They had me do a test to see if I had adequate suspension travel. That's the zip tie secured to the bottom of the exposed, fully extended front strut shaft. Then drive normally and see how far up the zip tie scoots. Any more than 50% up the shaft means there isn't enough travel. Well in just going up and down the block, the zip tie went 100% to the top of the shaft. So definitely not enough travel. Tokico also said the H&R springs I have are just too aggressive for the Tokicos.

The other thing Tokico mentioned is that this used setup is missing dust covers and bump stops. So that may have been causing some dull clunking I was getting from the front over even the most gentle bumps. They also said the Tokicos are not blown based on my description of them.

About the handling, I've decided to go back to a taller ride height. Low looks nice but after having this lower set up a few months, I just don't feel as confident in the turns around town. I can only imagine how lousy my Ep would handle for autocross.

I placed an order for the Buddy Club N+, which I've been able to try out in a buddy's Ep. They are a good mix of what I'm looking for and are autocross-able.

So I'll probably separate the Tokicos and H&R springs and sell them at some point. They work fine independently for what they do, but sounds like they are not a good pairing overall.