Need suspension advice on all aspects.

[Powers]

Starting to work on the suspension now that I have kpro and a good tune. So I have plenty of questions. First off Ill state what I want to do with the car.

The ep is my daily driver. That being said I dont really care about how smooth the ride is at all. I could care less if it felt as though I was going to lose my teeth or break my back. I like to do some spirited driving every now and then and plan on putting it on the track maybe once or twice a month and also attend a few autocross meets.

Now where to start? Im thinking braces and bushings. But which bushings hard rubber polurethane or spherical. I would get spherical but im scared of how long they will last with daily driving like pot holes bumpy roads and stuff. Im leaning towards polyurethane. I dont know what direction to go in with that department.

Would it be bad to do lets say lower tie bar rear control arms subframe brace and strut tower braces on stock struts until tax season rolls around to get coilovers?

What coilovers would you reccomend? I like the idea of buddy club rsd's with the tax money.

I know I will need rear camber arms and camber bolts. I also plan on roll center adjusters. With the roll center adjusters about how low would you set the ride height?

And then theres sway bars...what would be a good competitive set? I've read that stiffer in the rear and softer in the front is good. But just how stiff in the rear and how soft in the front? I saw the hotchkis competition sway bar kit which seemed to be a good idea to me.

Theres to many options and variables running through my head :mmad:

[Popeye]

If your car is going to remain a DD, I dont know that I would make your ride too harsh. A lot of us dont care how harsh our ride is. But if you ever end up taking a long trip in your car, you're not going to enjoy that harsh ride so much. What if you had to go to a funeral and give an old person a ride? Yeah, I know, dumb example. But you get the point. In MY opinion, if you had another car to drive, make it as harsh as you want. Having a harsh ride at first wont matter much. But before long, you'll be wishing you would have gone with a softer ride.
My suggestion....get a good set of coilovers that is adjustable. That way you can control how harsh your ride is when you need to.

[.colin]

I'll share my setup and experiences - I have the Mugen SS with a CTR rear sway bar and I think it rides too harsh sometimes (and this is a pretty mild setup). But I also live in Pittsburgh and our roads are shit. My wife's RSX rides so much smoother. I actually prefer her car when driving long durations or distances. I have other suspension mods but they don't make as much difference as the sway and springs/struts. Stay away from strut bars, they don't do much (at least ones that bolt together). 1 piece bars are the best. Also, if you get adjustable coilovers, don't slam your shit on it's tits like half the members on this site. It'll drive WORSE than stock.

Get a good set of tires, springs/struts, and a beefy rear sway and you'll be happy.

[makavelibranded]

Starting to work on the suspension now that I have kpro and a good tune. So I have plenty of questions. First off Ill state what I want to do with the car.

The ep is my daily driver. That being said I dont really care about how smooth the ride is at all. I could care less if it felt as though I was going to lose my teeth or break my back. I like to do some spirited driving every now and then and plan on putting it on the track maybe once or twice a month and also attend a few autocross meets.

Now where to start? Im thinking braces and bushings. But which bushings hard rubber polurethane or spherical. I would get spherical but im scared of how long they will last with daily driving like pot holes bumpy roads and stuff. Im leaning towards polyurethane. I dont know what direction to go in with that department.

Would it be bad to do lets say lower tie bar rear control arms subframe brace and strut tower braces on stock struts until tax season rolls around to get coilovers?

What coilovers would you reccomend? I like the idea of buddy club rsd's with the tax money.

I know I will need rear camber arms and camber bolts. I also plan on roll center adjusters. With the roll center adjusters about how low would you set the ride height?

And then theres sway bars...what would be a good competitive set? I've read that stiffer in the rear and softer in the front is good. But just how stiff in the rear and how soft in the front? I saw the hotchkis competition sway bar kit which seemed to be a good idea to me.

Theres to many options and variables running through my head :mmad:

Energy Suspension makes and entire kit for our cars and replaces all bushings, theres just tons of them and is the only reason why I have not got them yet only motor mount inserts.

Go here to learn about your bracing needs http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=676396

I love my RSD's and im also running no front sway, and a CTR rear sway, its pretty dramatic and creates a good amount of oversteer, my alignment is setup 0 toe front and back, neg 2 camber up front neg 1 in the rear.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAKyfvyjouI

[ep_hatcher_510]

Starting to work on the suspension now that I have kpro and a good tune. So I have plenty of questions. First off Ill state what I want to do with the car.

The ep is my daily driver. That being said I dont really care about how smooth the ride is at all. I could care less if it felt as though I was going to lose my teeth or break my back. I like to do some spirited driving every now and then and plan on putting it on the track maybe once or twice a month and also attend a few autocross meets.

Now where to start? Im thinking braces and bushings. But which bushings hard rubber polurethane or spherical. I would get spherical but im scared of how long they will last with daily driving like pot holes bumpy roads and stuff. Im leaning towards polyurethane. I dont know what direction to go in with that department.

Would it be bad to do lets say lower tie bar rear control arms subframe brace and strut tower braces on stock struts until tax season rolls around to get coilovers?

What coilovers would you reccomend? I like the idea of buddy club rsd's with the tax money.

I know I will need rear camber arms and camber bolts. I also plan on roll center adjusters. With the roll center adjusters about how low would you set the ride height?

And then theres sway bars...what would be a good competitive set? I've read that stiffer in the rear and softer in the front is good. But just how stiff in the rear and how soft in the front? I saw the hotchkis competition sway bar kit which seemed to be a good idea to me.

Theres to many options and variables running through my head :mmad:

Bushings will benefit, go hard race rubber ones they will last longer, if not get the poly ones, don't do spherical for a daily.
Tie bars, strutbars, control arms... etc are pretty useless so don't waste money on that yet.
Yes get the stuff for camber adjustments, camber is good, cant tell you how much, that depends on the car and you.
Sway bars is also good, a stiffer rear will have the car rotating around a turn better, you dont have to spend a whole lot, u can get a 21mm rsx type s for 60 bucks, 22mm type r for about 120, or the more expensive progress 22mm, cusco 25mm etc.... depends on you which ever one you want.
The RSDs are a good set of prebuild coilovers although i never had them but many who autox and track says good things about it.
Ride height should be set at 1.5 - 2" max with the adjusters, at least that's what i recommend.
Also a good idea to upgrade brakes later on.
You forgot the most important thing, tires, a good set of sticky tires out weights all of the above.
Also don't mind body roll, it does not determine how good or bad a car handles.

Have fun.

[Powers]

Looks like your setup is running pretty nice mak. And thanks for that list I might order up that brace for under the steering rack and shock tower braces tomorrow after reading it and leave the braces there. You wouldnt happen to have a part number for the ctr rear sway bar would you? And lets say I got the rear ctr sway. Would you run that with out a front sway on stock struts until you got the coilovers or is it that the stock springs are not stiff enough to do so?

[poeticfinesse21]

Read these threads, the amount of info is ridiculous...
http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=569763
http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=573805
http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=565676

[Powers]

Tons of good info there poetic. Youve got some good links! So far you motivated me to start out with the energy suspension bushing set and two braces that came on the dc5r. Which rear sway would you say is better though the ctr rear sway or the dc5r? Or are they both the same thing?

[poeticfinesse21]

DC5-R and EP3-R both came with a 22mm rear sway bar so it makes no difference but honestly I would just go with a 05-06 RSX-S 21mm rear sway bar. Why pay more than double for a 1mm difference? If you want a real serious rear sway then pick up a RSX cusco 25mm, that'll will definitely make your car rotate :mbiggrin:

[rhdsirek4]

DC5-R and EP3-R both came with a 22mm rear sway bar so it makes no difference but honestly I would just go with a 05-06 RSX-S 21mm rear sway bar. Why pay more than double for a 1mm difference? If you want a real serious rear sway then pick up a RSX cusco 25mm, that'll will definitely make your car rotate :mbiggrin:

Which one are you using? I want to make my car as stiff as possible. Once I add my aggressive wheels that is.

[poeticfinesse21]

I have the 05-06 RSX-S 21mm rear sway, I got it for $50 shipped from a clubrsx member. I'm currently on a full DC5-R suspension but when that goes, I wanna upgrade to either the a-spec kit or the mugen sport. Once that happens I also wanna upgrade to the cusco 25mm rear sway :mbiggrin: If you want the stiffest rear sway then your options are:

Cusco (solid bar) 25mm
Hotchkiss (hollow bar) 27mm
ASR (hollow bar) 32mm

Great sway bar info in these threads:

http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=567637
http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=614939&highlight=

[Zzyzx]

Lets start with the things that will actually improve the cars handling now, such as tire choices and alignment settings. leave the things that will do next to nothing to last, such as chassis bracing.

so, first things first... What tires are you running? and what is the cars alignment set to?

[Powers]

I have 215/24r17 nitto neogens. They deffinetly helped out and I like them a lot hooks up alot better and handles better. Its stock alignment right now but I dont want to get it aligned right now. Im probably going to end up buying energy suspension bushings and a ctr rear sway to start out with in a week or two. Ill get it aligned then and try to get it a little more aggressive.

[Zzyzx]

are you planning on sticking with the Neogens for the foreseeable future? I ask because when dealing with suspension tuning, everything ends up being in support of the tire. Remember, your tires are the only thing touching the ground, and thus the only thing that can generate traction. So every thing you do to your suspension has to be focused on getting the most out of what ever tire you have, else you just end up tuning for "feel" and that tends to mean a poorly handling but good feeling car.

[Powers]

I do plan on sticking with them. In my opinion they seem to be a good tire.

[Zzyzx]

they are an all season tire, a reasonable one, but still an all season tire (AKA jack of all trades but master of none). Regardless, we can still tune around them.

Since you are pretty much starting fresh we have to figure out what suspension frequency (Hz) would be good for those tires as well as factor in how low you want to drop the car... consensus says no greater then 1.5 inches lower then OEM ride height for best performance and finally figure out how aggressive or not you are willing to run the alignment.

Stock Hz for an EP3 is 1.66Hz on the nose & 1.79Hz on the rear. Buddy Club RSD's are going to jump that to 2.49Hz on the nose and 2.55Hz on the rear. I'd say that's a bit much for All season tires. I'd be looking for ~2 to 2.2Hz on the nose (enough spring that we can play with anti-roll bar stiffness there) and around 2.3-2.4 hz on the rear (this is a street car after all). (Progress C1's would not be a bad choice for you, 1.97Hz front 2.16Hz rear)
http://forums.clubep3.com/showpost.php?p=34559026&postcount=40
the basic rule regarding reading suspension frequencies, the end with the higher # will tend to let go in a turn 1st. If you brows that xls you'll find quite a few suspension setups with higher #'s on the nose.... On an already under steer prone car... do you think its advantageous to set the springs up to exacerbate that tendency if your goal is to make the car turn better? (Tein is prone to this type of tuning)

once you've picked out your spring, and more importantly new dampers.. we can go to the next steps. Suspension tuning is best done slowly, one part at a time.

[cow]

I <3 Zzyzx's posts as I always feel enlightened after reading them.

[Hasbro]

Listen to Z, he'll steer you correctly.

Here's my example; I'm at 336 front/ 575 rear (Swift springs/GNCs/Konis), which is 2.0 hz. front/ 2.2 rear. You would need higher springs on a stock weight car to get the same numbers. My numbers are different from stock due to reduced weight. I'm using Kumho XS 225/50/16 for now, with a 180 UTQG. With my final weight reduction those springs will have me at 2.15f/2.35r. Those are just numbers to start out with, a base from which to start. For me hz. will go out the door due to increased track, front & rear % weight changes, more severe suspension tuning, stickier and lower profile tires with a lower UTQG, etc. My new wheels, for instance, will be wider and the springs will actually be "softer"- hence lower hz. ratings. So hertz is a great place to start but will require a lot more considerations down the line, as Z man stated. Suspension is both an art and a science and a lot of fun and work to successfully accomplish. Take your time and enjoy.

edit: by the way, she corners beautifully and will only get better. This is mostly a "street" car.

[ptriq]

hey hasbro. just curious, how much does your car weigh?

[Hasbro]

2475. Final will be 2275. Numbers based on 2775 stock and subtracting from there. Anything less than 2275 is severe and $$$.

[makavelibranded]

2475. Final will be 2275. Numbers based on 2775 stock and subtracting from there. Anything less than 2275 is severe and $$$.

Im curious as to where you have cut weight, ive gone as far as a bucket seat driver side and gutted the hatch, minus panels. Id like to get a different steering wheel, and take the airbags out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yRtMJCaIao[

Also heres a vid from last weekend, one thing I wanted to work on from previous races since for the most part my throttle control is way better, is 2 hands on the steering wheel, one thing that helped was getting a steering wheel for forza and working on my posture while playing its just a video game but it helped me get stuff down, plus day to day driving and reminding myself. I should have attacked the course a little harder and if I did not hit the cone would have come in 4th overall. The top 3 were within 2 seconds from my time also im on street tires while everyone else runs slicks in my class and everyone else has years more experience on me, but im pretty confident that my car can take SMF I need to get more driver seat time, and slicks.

[Hasbro]

Oh, man, you don't want to get me started. I have about four scenarios on six pages for pulling weight. Just a touch obsessed. But you can pull about 300 lbs from the interior alone if you don't mind a serious gut. After the interior I think the next step is to pull at least 100 lbs from the front - then you're getting into some nice handling improvements. Here's a good compilation; http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=694887 .

Sprung weight total removal is potentially around 60 lbs., give or take, depending.

A little trivia, apples and oranges but;
JDM Type R brake hp to weight - 1/12.2
UKDM - 1/13.45
USDM Si K20A3 - 1/17.3
USDM at 2275 - 14.2
USDM 26bhp from bolt ons - 12.2, and much better handling.

[Powers]

Hasbro what would you reccomend taking out of the interior. I already took out the spare tire jack truck liner deck lid gutted the hatch. Im thinking rear seats rear seat belts and sound deadening material next. Im trying to get it a little lighter and still keep the interior some what comfortable. Getting a brail battery and delete the ac up front soon too. Probably should have mentioned that in the begginning. I've also been thinking about the tire comment... Maybe Ill try to run the neogens for a street tire and eventually fork out the cash for a good track tire?

[b_ron]

Listen to Z, he'll steer you correctly.



I see what you did there.

[Hasbro]

I see what you did there.
No moss growing on you!

[Hasbro]

Hasbro what would you reccomend taking out of the interior. I already took out the spare tire jack truck liner deck lid gutted the hatch. Im thinking rear seats rear seat belts and sound deadening material next. Im trying to get it a little lighter and still keep the interior some what comfortable. Getting a brail battery and delete the ac up front soon too. Probably should have mentioned that in the begginning. I've also been thinking about the tire comment... Maybe Ill try to run the neogens for a street tire and eventually fork out the cash for a good track tire?

Ooh, pulling the ac, good for you. That's huge. Wish I could. Sounds like you're on your way.

It depends on how far you are willing to go. And your budget. I have every thing behind the seats out except for a little more insulation yet to hammer out and some metal support stuff to cut out. I plan on making a divider between the front and rear interior with Plexi on the top half that is hinged so it can be lowered or removed. This will quiet the cockpit substantially and make the ac much more efficient. Maybe someday put in an ac unit that weighs half of our unit.

I will also redo the hatch and bumper area, including moving the rear bumper sort of to the interior. But that's a bit extreme for, well, anyone besides me, lol. Should save 20-30 lbs. in an effective (high and overhanging) area.

There's a bunch of stuff in the front interior; inner door plastic is 15 lbs. and can be redone with about 2-4 lbs., carpet, insulation, after market seats- 40 to 50 lbs, moonroof- 30 lbs, radio, lighter wheel, stripped out dash (can look awesome), 2 layers of the firewall, plastic windows except windshield. That's about160 lbs. right there.

There's 35 to 45 lbs. of sprung weight to pull off of the front and about 90-110 lbs. unsprung on the front of the EP, most of that being up high or forward of the wheels. This is when your car can feel really impressive - provided your suspension is well tuned. I haven't gotten that far with the EP yet but have done it with numerous other front wheel drives.

So, about 300 lbs. off of the middle and front of the car without going too crazy. Plus that's a lot of freed up horsepower, at least 15 whp. A stock 136 whp K20A3 is now performing like a 151 whp EP, sort of. Not to mention the 200 lbs. removed from behind the front seats. That would be about 161 whp. Sort of.

I feel weight removal is an absolutely essential factor towards getting the Ep to excellant handling levels.

[Powers]

I need my stereo I can not part with that. so lets say I take out the rear seats sound deadening material and plastic panels behind the rear seats. Ac is coming off as well with a braille battery for the front so far. Where else can I pull weight off at the front you said sprung and unsprung weight. Which is better to remove and can you provide some examples? Is sprung weight something like a hood and unsprung weight like the front lower control arm?

[Hasbro]

I need my stereo I can not part with that. so lets say I take out the rear seats sound deadening material and plastic panels behind the rear seats. Ac is coming off as well with a braille battery for the front so far. Where else can I pull weight off at the front you said sprung and unsprung weight. Which is better to remove and can you provide some examples? Is sprung weight something like a hood and unsprung weight like the front lower control arm?

You sound interested enough to warrant doing some research reading so you are familiar with some of the stuff "You Need To Know". Lots of really good stuff to read is on here, ClubEP, and some great web pages that someone else can add to here. If not, I'll do it later.

This is fun;

http://www.motoiq.com/tech/the_ultimate_guide_to_suspension_handling.aspx

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2639666