Skunk2 Civic RR Rebuild 2B Reborn!!!

[03CivicSiRacer]

Hi, my name is Tommy and I've been a car enthusiast since I've owned my first EP3 back in '04 (2003 SSM EP3) and a few years later, I traded it in for a FA5 ('07 Civic Si Sedan) and missed my EP3 ever since. I moved onto a few more cars here and there but kept it in the Honda family. Until I found an '03 G35 coupe and love everything about it. Then recently, I found a 02 Skunk2 Civic RR for sale here (I still come back every once in awhile and see how everyone's doing) and it's like love at first sight--instantly, I wanted to get into another EP and intend to keep it this time. I flew out to Boston, MA and purchased it from Jimmy (importxcustomx) and he's an awesome and honest guy. Bought it and drove it back to Iowa...then my car won't start.

After weeks of troubleshooting, I know I have to overhaul my engine to recheck everything. A few flaws with the car is the S2 S1 V1 cams were faulty to begin with--caused my OEM tensioner to jump teeth--bent a few valves--whole lotta mess. Skunk2 also claim they did a porting job on the head--a half a$$ one (they barely ported anything) So, I have to rebuild my head and port & polish it too--got S2 S3 V3 cams, HR tensioner, S2 valves--I thought it was complete until today. I noticed my block is bad--cylinder 1 have bad nicks inside the combustion chamber (seems like the engine has been blown up before and caused floating valves hitting it), cylinder 2 have bad deterioration (coolant leaked inside and saturated and deteriorated the aluminum) cylinder 3 have bad oil leak (explains why Jimmy tends to check the oil every fill up) cuz the piston ring doesn't seal up as it should, cylinder 4 is normal. All in all, I'm quite disappointed with how Skunk2 would build a so-call ultimate ride but can't do it right. At least now, I'm gonna do it right and go bigger... my goal is to turn it into a K25 build--300whp. I'll keep this thread updated with photos once I start with the build.

[whatsvtec]

Damn... Sounds like a typical S2 job.

Glad it's made it's way to good hands and will get some proper treatment though. Welcome back! :hay:

[Ba82Ep3]

Im definitely excited to see this progress... :thumbu:

[Deadphishy]

I'm wondering why you went with more sk2 products if they massed up so many things to start with?

[mitchlikesbikes]

I'm wondering why you went with more sk2 products if they massed up so many things to start with?

for real. hahaha

[03CivicSiRacer]

even though s2 messed up, but it's still a s2 built car. i like to pick up from where they've left off. still make my car more unique than ever.

[Deadphishy]

even though s2 messed up, but it's still a s2 built car. i like to pick up from where they've left off. still make my car more unique than ever.

I respect that. You know Sk2 makes a tensioner right?

Go big my friend, 12.5+ compression.

[superchargedk20]

Wow what a mess. And this is a car they built lol. Bump for junk2

[03CivicSiRacer]

I respect that. You know Sk2 makes a tensioner right?

Go big my friend, 12.5+ compression.

they "did" but now it's discontinued (because it didn't fix the TCT failure issue). Hybrid Racing one is more promising--i went with them instead. 10.5:1-11.3:1 CR is my goal.

[Deadphishy]

ok,
My 2 cents, and it's not two pre 1982 copper pennies either.

You won't make 300hp with that low of compression. I would put 12.5 at the minimum.
The Sk2 stage 3 games look to have some serious duration meaning they won't run well on lower compression. The longer the valves stay open the less dynamic compression you end up with. With big cams you need to start high so by the time the valves close you still have enough compression to make a nice big bang.

What are you doing to reach 2.5L's sleeves? or having the crank ground to a stroker?

[03CivicSiRacer]

ok,
My 2 cents, and it's not two pre 1982 copper pennies either.

You won't make 300hp with that low of compression. I would put 12.5 at the minimum.
The Sk2 stage 3 games look to have some serious duration meaning they won't run well on lower compression. The longer the valves stay open the less dynamic compression you end up with. With big cams you need to start high so by the time the valves close you still have enough compression to make a nice big bang.

What are you doing to reach 2.5L's sleeves? or having the crank ground to a stroker?

i'm gonna bore out my stock sleeves to 89mm safely (according to Jeremy from JE Pistons). so i would total out to 2.46'ish L (rounded off to 2.5L).

i'm gonna run stock stroke. with 10.5 CR pistons, and 89mm bore.. i'm able to gain 11.3:1 CR (approximately). my teacher and I did the math and i like the idea of retaining pump gas and make enough power. if i don't reach 300whp---i like to get as close as possible.

[Deadphishy]

I would not right away buy those pistons. Honda says the max bore on stock sleeves is 87.5mm. The K series community says 88mm is tops. 88.5mm is pushing it really thin, specially if your bores aren't true anymore. I would look into that before making the leap. A great shop to contact for questions is ERL.

I just did the math, All I am seeing is a .4 increase for a bore increase of 2mm. Getting you close to 11:1, that is assuming you can go that far overbore.

12.5:1 compression with those cams will run on 91 octane all day long, you could even get away with running stock cams and not see and issues.

I not trying to bust anyone's dreams, just trying to help work out some things with you to make sure everything goes as well as possible.

[Deadphishy]

A good general rule is for every 1 point you go up in compression you will see 20whp. That will play an even bigger factor with those cams. Your dynamic compression is going to be really low if you stay with 10.5:1 pistons. Call SK2 they will tell you that you will actually be losing power over a stage 2 cam if you don't have the compression.

I had spec III hytech cams in my 11.5:1 k24 once. I put them in and was like huh, nothing special. I called hytech and they said, what did you make with your stock a2 cams. I said 225whp. His response, you might see 5 to 10. I went to BC stage 2's and made a little over 240. (exhaust limited) 2.25" mid-pipe.

[Ba82Ep3]

Yes, yes. I second the overbore info. 87.5 safely on stock bore, 88 is pushing it. I too wouldnt do anything less than 12.5cr with those cams. If you were confident of your tuners ability.. and the engine builders attention to detail... i would go with 13.0cr... and pay the franklins it will take to tune the ignition tables properly across the board, so you can reliably run 93oct.

Honestly i wouldnt even use those cams... but i respect your desire to build this project YOUR way. Hell, im sure there are plenty of peeps that think i go overboard on the OEM route... but we all have our own way.

High strung NA power is definitely parts choice based and tuner dependent. Thats one reason its so very expensive to hit that 300whp mark... and STAY there reliably. Cover all your bases. Port match everything you can. Pay the bucks for a legit raceheader (ASP) made for your setup. Youll be happy with your result... for a long time.

[Ba82Ep3]

I had spec III hytech cams in my 11.5:1 k24 once. I put them in and was like huh, nothing special. I called hytech and they said, what did you make with your stock a2 cams. I said 225whp. His response, you might see 5 to 10. I went to BC stage 2's and made a little over 240. (exhaust limited) 2.25" mid-pipe.

THANK YOU. It drives me nuts when everyone screams "3 inch exhaust or nothing". Everything has to work together for the best end result. 3 inch exhaust isnt always the answer...

[1GR8EP3]

3in Exhaust or YOU MAKE NO POWER! :P lol j/k

OP... I would def listen to the words these guys put out, they have done there homework on what works and what does it safely. And thats what a forum is about talking ideas to come up with the best results or running a new set up so people can see if the route you went works.

Now I agree with Ba about running closer to a 13.0cr ... I just dont see you getting very close to 300whp with out running a higher compression. Guys with 2.5-2.6l builds have trouble getting to those numbers. Have you looked on k20a.org they have a bunch of threads where guys have done builds to get close to 300whp I would check that out as well.

well good luck on your build and all in all welcome back to the ep family.

[Deadphishy]

THANK YOU. It drives me nuts when everyone screams "3 inch exhaust or nothing". Everything has to work together for the best end result. 3 inch exhaust isnt always the answer...

I liked my exhaust because it sounded stock. However for my build i left about 20-30whp on the dyno because i didn't have a big name header and bigger exhaust. I know you will be sad to hear, but my new exhaust is going to be custom 3" with a race cat, vibrant ultra quiet resonator and vibrant stealth muffler. should be nice......I too am going for close to 300whp. But i will more then likely get stuck around 275 until i upgrade my intake manifold and TB.

[1GR8EP3]

I liked my exhaust because it sounded stock. However for my build i left about 20-30whp on the dyno because i didn't have a big name header and bigger exhaust. I know you will be sad to hear, but my new exhaust is going to be custom 3" with a race cat, vibrant ultra quiet resonator and vibrant stealth muffler. should be nice......I too am going for close to 300whp. But i will more then likely get stuck around 275 until i upgrade my intake manifold and TB.

What helped me make numbers was I ran a 3in e-cutout, that thing is the bees-nees. My exhaust sounded stock then when it came down to business, I flip that switch and it was game time hahaha

[Ba82Ep3]

Agreed. Ill be the first to admit i too lost HP sticking with the smaller diameter exhaust. But i will also be the first to point out peak hp wasnt my goal.

My current 2.0 build is an example of pushing the midrange limits for daily use. While i feel a 2.2 would ultimately give me everything i want (having built both 2.0 and 2.4 setups), my personal OEM goal keeps me from dropping big bucks to make it a reality. So, this 2.0 is thinking outside the box (and i would KILL for an OEM 86.5mm 12.0cr slug), and for once i feel i could rev to 8k and retain a flat TQ band with a little larger exhaust (2.75). Im more concerned about power below the crossover, and a smooth seamless transition into VTEC than HP numbers. If i can find 75% of the engines total output at 5krpm, can cruise around in any gear without bogging the engine, then my job is done and im happy.

NA is a handful to build and tune... if youre looking for the total package. There is always a compromise that involves loss... and gain. But if youre looking for power only in columns 7-10 from 1krpm to 9krpm... then 3" will def be youre go to piping size...

To the TS... take your time bro. Choose your path, stick with it, make your choices, spend your $ once, and enjoy the fruit of your labor. If you aint happy with it... build another one. Your idea of "slammin" can be totally different from anyone elses. :thumbu:

[superchargedk20]

^^^ this man is a freakin poet

[1GR8EP3]

^^^ this man is a freakin poet

LOL I agree I think a tear came to my eye.... Encore , ENCORE!

[03CivicSiRacer]

So today I did massive work. Got the block apart, tranny apart, crankshaft out, etc. found more bs work s2 did. Flywheel is strip (they use heli-coil), starter held down by only 1 bolt, and little misc things here n there. Whole lotta non-quality work for a reputable company. Enough of them. I decide to do the 88mm bore job. I won't achieve my 2.5L but its definitely more than 2.4L. A stock k24 is not quite 2.4L. So I think I should be ok. Is 88mm bore too much? Wiseco say it should be ok.

[Deadphishy]

So today I did massive work. Got the block apart, tranny apart, crankshaft out, etc. found more bs work s2 did. Flywheel is strip (they use heli-coil), starter held down by only 1 bolt, and little misc things here n there. Whole lotta non-quality work for a reputable company. Enough of them. I decide to do the 88mm bore job. I won't achieve my 2.5L but its definitely more than 2.4L. A stock k24 is not quite 2.4L. So I think I should be ok. Is 88mm bore too much? Wiseco say it should be ok.

Only go as big as you need to. Almost no power will be gained by increasing your bore size .5mm. Take the block to a good machine shop before you buy the pistons. The will tell your the smallest size you can do.

I repeat, this goes for everyone. Machine shop always gets a look at the block before you drop 500+ dollars on pistons you can't return.

[03CivicSiRacer]

I'm trying to gain as much as possible out of my stock sleeves. I'm gonna go for 12.5CR pistons regardless. Gain as much displacement.

[Deadphishy]

I'm trying to gain as much as possible out of my stock sleeves. I'm gonna go for 12.5CR pistons regardless. Gain as much displacement.

It's not worth it, to thin and your cylinder walls with bow and warp. The power increase from .5mm is 3HP at best. Let a the shop check out your bore and let you know how big you have to go.

87/3.14 = 27.707mm/2 = 13.85mm = Radius of the bore
13.85 X 13.85 X 3.14 = 602mm^2 = area of the bore
602mm^2 X 99mm stroke = 59598mm^3 volume of a cylinder

59598 X 4 cylinders = 238392mm^3 or 2.38392 Liters

88 / 3.14 / 2 = 14.01

14.01 X 14.01 X 3.14 x 99 = 61016mm^3 x 4 = 2.44L

difference of 2.45% or about 7 hp on a 300hp motor.

quick math sorry for the laziness.

[03CivicSiRacer]

It's not worth it, to thin and your cylinder walls with bow and warp. The power increase from .5mm is 3HP at best. Let a the shop check out your bore and let you know how big you have to go.

87/3.14 = 27.707mm/2 = 13.85mm = Radius of the bore
13.85 X 13.85 X 3.14 = 602mm^2 = area of the bore
602mm^2 X 99mm stroke = 59598mm^3 volume of a cylinder

59598 X 4 cylinders = 238392mm^3 or 2.38392 Liters

88 / 3.14 / 2 = 14.01

14.01 X 14.01 X 3.14 x 99 = 61016mm^3 x 4 = 2.44L

difference of 2.45% or about 7 hp on a 300hp motor.

quick math sorry for the laziness.

Makes a lotta sense. I'll just be safe n bore it 87.5 mm. Thanks bro

[Deadphishy]

Makes a lotta sense. I'll just be safe n bore it 87.5 mm. Thanks bro

No problem. You never know what defects or scratches are deeper then they look. You said the cylinder walls were not in great shape, the machinist might came back after inspecting it and say that you have to do 88mm, and that your cylinders are still round and true enough that you will have enough iron left all around for it to last.

[03CivicSiRacer]

No problem. You never know what defects or scratches are deeper then they look. You said the cylinder walls were not in great shape, the machinist might came back after inspecting it and say that you have to do 88mm, and that your cylinders are still round and true enough that you will have enough iron left all around for it to last.

Yeah. I'm sending my block out tomorrow and having the machine shop do it @ 87.5mm. Once it's confirm that it's ok, I'm gonna order some pistons and they will do the final honing when they get my pistons. Everything went as planned. My crankcase looks good, rods are good too. I just need new bearings. Once it's all good I'll post massive pics of my work up.

[Deadphishy]

what kind of rods were in that thing? k24a2 TSX rods?

[03CivicSiRacer]

I believe they're Cunningham forged rods (according to their specs sheet).

[Deadphishy]

nice. good luck!

[makavelibranded]

Gl with the build that too bad they screwed it up but not surprising,.. I personally would not buy a thing from Junk2 minus there shift knob.

[Ba82Ep3]

It's not worth it, to thin and your cylinder walls with bow and warp. The power increase from .5mm is 3HP at best. Let a the shop check out your bore and let you know how big you have to go.

87/3.14 = 27.707mm/2 = 13.85mm = Radius of the bore
13.85 X 13.85 X 3.14 = 602mm^2 = area of the bore
602mm^2 X 99mm stroke = 59598mm^3 volume of a cylinder

59598 X 4 cylinders = 238392mm^3 or 2.38392 Liters

88 / 3.14 / 2 = 14.01

14.01 X 14.01 X 3.14 x 99 = 61016mm^3 x 4 = 2.44L

difference of 2.45% or about 7 hp on a 300hp motor.

quick math sorry for the laziness.

Im glad you took the time to 'break it down'... because i rarely do anymore... but I SOOO love informative threads that share collective thought AND experience. The more the merrier IMO.

While bore and stroke are connected, stroke has a greater effect than bore on power made (given realistic R/S ratios)... but as with anything there are exceptions.

Its important to remember a block deforms (twists and moves) during use. I mean after all, it IS harnessing repetitive explosions and turning them into a useable mechanical force. With that said, i dont think that k24 iron sleeves are 'too thin' at 88mm... but it DOES weaken the open deck sleeve design.

Boosted and NA setups exploit this weakness... but do it differently. The further you push an NA setup to the edge, the hotter your combustion temps (EGT) will rise. Lets consider one sleeve. Expansion rates between your slug of choice and the sleeve will vary... and vary quickly. An 88mm iron sleeve will allow the entire sleeve to change its shape and affect slug to sleeve clearances, more than if it was 87mm. Imagine the variances created across several sleeves.

Slug design can make or break your build too. Shorter skirts mean less friction, but can also spell disaster in an engine that has thin sleeves, tuned improperly and runs hotter (lean) in some cylinders than the others... or is run too hot (lean) altogether.

If youve ever seen engines with an EGT sensor for each cylinder... they are trying to make sure that one or more cylinders arent running hotter (leaner) than the others... which some may think its about AFR's when its moreso for expansion rate control across the engine as a whole.

All of this (and much more lol) needs to be taken into account when building an engine. Its always better to attain more power with higher slug cr, than to press the limits on a lower cr slug with greater timing advance. Timing advance makes power yes... but it increases combustion temp (EGT) and stresses engine assembly clearances (made worse by thin sleeves). If you dont have the ability to (hardware/software), or take the time to tune the setup properly... you will do engine damage faster than you could imagine. Most chalk it up to running it too lean. Some pass it off as poor engine assembly. Some will blame the components chosen for the build. The fact is... ALL are important factors with tuning as the foundation.

If i were you, and i really wanted to run an 88mm bore, i would run a 13+cr piston. KPro has individual cylinder fuel trims, but a basic setup has no real way of managing the info per cylinder... as its is still collected by one o2 sensor after all of the EX gases have been combined. With the 13cr piston, youre guaranteed to be closer to your hp/tq goal... with less stress on the engine and a longer life because you wont have to tune on the ragged edge to get there.

Honestly... i wouldnt shy sway from running low boost (say 4-5psi with a JRSC) on the slugs you wanna run now (plenty of people run k20a engines with 10+psi on pump gas). While the cams wouldnt be the best of choices (for boost)... i know i could reliably make 300+whp and make the engine last much, much longer. JMO though... so take it for what it is. :mwink:

[03CivicSiRacer]

So plans have changed. Now I want to even go bigger. I'm gonna get darton sleeves and bore it to 90mm + 90mm 12.5 cr JE pistons. I did the calculation, I'll be at 2.5755L. K26??!! I think so!

[Her-Name's-Ally]

holy shit

[03CivicSiRacer]

holy shit

Might as well right??? Go big or go home.

On the side note tho, is there any k25 of k26 ep3's yet?

[03CivicSiRacer]

i guess i was too quick to jump ahead. just talked to Darton and they told me the max i can do is 90mm but that's only for race application. they told me DD is 89mm. so k25 it is. i'm actually really pump for this whole experience with building my own shietz!

[Deadphishy]

i guess i was too quick to jump ahead. just talked to Darton and they told me the max i can do is 90mm but that's only for race application. they told me DD is 89mm. so k25 it is. i'm actually really pump for this whole experience with building my own shietz!

cough ERL, cough ERL short block.....
Pick your monster of choice.
http://www.erlperformance.com/honda-k24-erl-superdeck-i

[03CivicSiRacer]

cough ERL, cough ERL short block.....
Pick your monster of choice.
http://www.erlperformance.com/honda-k24-erl-superdeck-i

darton told me my stock block should be ok w/ my N/A setup. if i was going for boost, then i would need to get a good built block.

[Deadphishy]

So your back to OEM sleeves?

[03CivicSiRacer]

no. darton sleeves, oem block, 89mm bore + JE pistons 12.5:1 CR.

[Deadphishy]

That's the same as ERL. They take stock blocks and cut out the old sleeves. To speed up the process, the pre-make blocks and just have you give them your block in exchange for one that it is already done.

[Tortoise]

Glad to see you came back to honda like i just did,sorry about the dumb problems though. i also came from a car with a vq35de..did you keep your g btw?

[03CivicSiRacer]

Glad to see you came back to honda like i just did,sorry about the dumb problems though. i also came from a car with a vq35de..did you keep your g btw?

yes.. my G is my DD for spring/summer. i have a suv for a winter beater.

[03CivicSiRacer]

just ordered darton sleeves and acl bearings... still indecisive about my piston choice. wiseco shelf 12.5 89mm vs je custom 89mm pistons... hmmm

[03CivicSiRacer]

more parts update!

wiseco 89mm pistons 12.5cr, s2 radiator hoses, s2 74mm tb, rbc manifold.. can't wait to get it all together so i can post up massive pics of my build. the RR will be alive again..SOON!

[Deadphishy]

What rods are you using? Skunk2 alpha rods might keep with your theme. They look decent. I've also heard a company is looking into making a header for a k24 swapped EP and rsx with the stock or bigger sways. How sexy is that going to be.

[03CivicSiRacer]

i have cunningham forged rods.

[Deadphishy]

That's right. Good deal. I think I'm going to get the new sk2 rods for my build.

[03CivicSiRacer]

That's right. Good deal. I think I'm going to get the new sk2 rods for my build.

i would love to get the alpha series rods too.. more s2 bling. lol

[dirtyMETHOD]

Getting interesting. Welcome back

[umdorado]

Want to see it run, build looks promising. Good luck

[03CivicSiRacer]

block got sent out to machine shop for new sleeves to be press in, then boring and honing. hopefully my head will be here before friday so i can start porting & polishing it.

[03CivicSiRacer]

sorry that i haven't updated this thread yet because i've been really busy w/ school, work, and building cars is a pain. as of now, i'm no longer doing the k25. no one around my area is able to sleeves my block. so i found another k24a1 block for dirt cheap, use that instead. now my shortblock is officially complete. i'm awaiting on the head and then my tranny will get rebuild along with installing a k20z3 LSD.