k24 build thread mugen twinloop vs 3" vs k20a and much more.

[urthworm]

Ive had alot of different setups on my ep since buying it back in 2005. After looking thru alot of old pics i realized I have alot of info that may be of some value to you ephatchers.

2006-2007 My first setup was on my stock k20a3. It was a custom turbo kit with a turbonetic t3/t4 60 trim, 2.5inch down pipe to a straight 3" (no cat) and a flowmaster muff, full race intercooler. tuned on kpro.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/Photo-0085.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/hulk.jpg

Here is the dyno on 10psi
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1968_zps0d7005a0.jpg

Here is another dyno graph with a cheap bottle neck ebay intercooler.. notice how the power would drop after full boost hit. As soon as i installed the full race intercooler boost went from 10psi to 14psi without making any adjustments to the boost controller.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1969_zps15cc5f0e.jpg

Here is one more graph to show you how different dynos read power. The solid red line is with the same tune as the first dyno graph above and the red dotted line is after the new tune.. notice the huge difference in numbers from the two different dynos. yet the car was on the exact same setups. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1970_zps548704be.jpg

2008-2009 Next setup: I had my block full built by erl perfomance. Manly rods, je 9:1 pistons (heat coated). K20a2 head, 1mm over valves, brian crower valve springs/retainers, stock cams, erl modified s2000 oil pump. Upgraded my turbo kit to a peakboost manifold and peakboost 3in downpipe and a garret gt3076r.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/Picture164-1.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/car1.jpg

Here is the dyno graph on 10psi
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1966_zps4e7d20bf.jpg

At the time i couldnt find anyone in my area to tune this car to its potential. And after ALOT of problems from tuning/tuners I sold this whole setup for a k20a.

I tried alot of different setups with the k20a. I raced the hell out of it for almost 3 years with zero problems. I took a 100 shot to put her down..

2009-2012 k20a, pwjdm intake, buddy club race header, mugen twinloop, kpro, rrc intake manifold, and blueprint stage two cams (old version)

dynod at 212whp 138trq (dyno chart further down)
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/100_1731.jpg

had itbs for a week or so but new mexico is to freaking hot for these.. didnt run good at all
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/Photo-02311.jpg


2012 current setup. After blowing up the type r (not gonna say i did it on purpose but i did have a 2.4 block just sitting in my garage :mwink: Oh and it only took one night, blew while tuning on the 4th pull) i started work on the 2.4. The k20a head was still salvagable. It already had blueprint valve spring/retainers and cams. The valves were bent so i installed blueprint .5mm oversized. The block was a k24a4 i put forged i beam rods, 87.5mm 12.5:1 compression pistons and had everything balanced. Fluidamp crank pulley, and k20a2 oil pump. For bolt ons i stayed with the rrc manifold and i have both a pwjdm intake and a hybrid racing cai. Buddy club race header and both the mugen twinloop for quite time and a custom 3" for ricer time. Hybrid racing 70mm throttle body and misimoto radiator/ thermo for keepin things nice and cool.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1478_zpsc8dac847.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/Photo0111_zpsf3d2c71c.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1480_zps49979020.jpg

Ok now for the dyno. The blue is the k24 with the 3in. The red is the k24 with the twinloop. and the green is the type r with twinloop, stage 2 cams, stock but ported throttle body. all on the same dyno but not the same day.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/Resampled_IMG_5412_zps2172b2c9.jpg

Couple pics of the car
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/Resampled_IMG_5404_zps7a60ff5d.jpeg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/Resampled_IMG_5398_zps64244fcc.jpeg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/alloutcallout.jpg

The hybrid cai does fit our cars with alil adjusting.. my tires barely hit it on full right turns so i added an elbow to it
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1474_zpsf9028c11.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1476_zps3ac1b0c0.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/IMAG1477_zps7701a88a.jpg


All work and tuning is now done by me and two friends.
Wont have it any other way after all the problems with the turbo setups.
Hope you enjoy the info.

[Deadphishy]

Thanks for sharing! I am very surprised to see the HP difference between the two exhaust. That set up looks prime for some bigger cams, what are you thinking?

[urthworm]

Thanks for sharing! I am very surprised to see the HP difference between the two exhaust. That set up looks prime for some bigger cams, what are you thinking?

Def wanting to look into bigger cams.. but checking all the clearances and doing the research on what cams i want is a pain in the ass and i just want to enjoy my car for now. I def open to suggestions though. I was already having valve to piston contact with these cams and had to run a 40degree vtc stop and a 50thou head gasket.

[Deadphishy]

You will have V-P contact on any stage 2 and up cam. You just have to limit the VTC that is the major factor.

I am surprised your running a thicker head gasket. Most K24's don't make much power about 35 advance, and a lot of people cut it theirs early and don't worry about the head gasket. That head gasket cuts your compression by 0.7.

I doing a k24 right now with 12.5:1. Using some Kelford stage 2's or the 2.2's i'm looking to make around 275whp with the VTC until blocked past 35.


0.7 points compression is about 14whp lost on average.

[superchargedk20]

Dude what a great read. I skimmed through it pretty fast but I'm gona go back and read it through again. Can I ask u one thing? What was wrong with ur turbo setup that u blamed the tuners? I also worry about my turbo tunes, I think mine is to rich but I haven't had any problems with it, but it still worrys me

[1GR8EP3]

Man you can see with the 3in it let it breathe up top. You have had some nice set ups sucks that you have had touble with tuners to the point your just fed up with it. I could under stand your frustration. How often do you switch back and forth from the 3in?

[urthworm]

You will have V-P contact on any stage 2 and up cam. You just have to limit the VTC that is the major factor.

I am surprised your running a thicker head gasket. Most K24's don't make much power about 35 advance, and a lot of people cut it theirs early and don't worry about the head gasket. That head gasket cuts your compression by 0.7.

I doing a k24 right now with 12.5:1. Using some Kelford stage 2's or the 2.2's i'm looking to make around 275whp with the VTC until blocked past 35.


0.7 points compression is about 14whp lost on average.


I didt know that at the time and thought from what I read it would need more vtc, but both the k20a and the k24 loved the 10cam. If I pull off the head now I'm the type that will want to upgrade more since the car is down. The block was decked and the head was milled so I'm not loosing to much compression, but I am still losing some.

[urthworm]

Dude what a great read. I skimmed through it pretty fast but I'm gona go back and read it through again. Can I ask u one thing? What was wrong with ur turbo setup that u blamed the tuners? I also worry about my turbo tunes, I think mine is to rich but I haven't had any problems with it, but it still worrys me

Nobody I took it to knew how to tune the full vtc or use hondata. They all tuned it like it was a bseries with 2 maps. turned of the knock sensor, Vtec oil pressure switch, blew my head gasket, just a bunch of shit, plus my custom kit was shitty and the oil return didn't flow right so I blew 3 turbos, stripped bolts, oil leaks. It all just added up.
My full built motor is in my best friends car now so I still get to drive it and watch it kick ass but now I get to see him deal with all the turbo problems. Not saying they all have problems but most do.

[superchargedk20]

I think I'm in the same boat as u. I made decent numbers. But I know its not fully tuned right

[Deadphishy]

Merry Christmas, was your head milled to make it flat or to raise compression? they don't take much off if its just to true up the block and head.

[Her-Name's-Ally]

urthworm...you're a real boss

[urthworm]

Merry Christmas, was your head milled to make it flat or to raise compression? they don't take much off if its just to true up the block and head.

Merry Christmas. The head was damaged when I blew the type r.. so it needed acouple passes to true it back up again.. then the small amount on the decking. So we werent exactly sure how much we lost. I know there is a way to measure the head and we did that but dont remember the numbers.

[urthworm]

I want to say we came up with 20thou that we lost and thats why we went with the 50thou head gasket to basically put back what we lost. The whole build got thrown for a loop the first time we clayed the engine and there was vtp contact.

[urthworm]

Man you can see with the 3in it let it breathe up top. You have had some nice set ups sucks that you have had touble with tuners to the point your just fed up with it. I could under stand your frustration. How often do you switch back and forth from the 3in?

tomorrow i will be going on my 4th time switching. Its not my favorite thing to do without a lift. And now that the 2.4 block sits higher it makes it alot harder to remove and install the 3 bolt mid pipe:mmad:

[urthworm]

I think I'm in the same boat as u. I made decent numbers. But I know its not fully tuned right
did they tune each cam angle then run each one on a dyno to see where they make power to make a final map? To do it right its a real pain in the ass! You have to tune out a dozen different maps for all the cam angles.

[Ba82Ep3]

... and this is why i tune my own shit. lol People really dunno how to tune... and honestly KPro isnt as hard or in depth as it could be.

The messed up thing is that first pull. Is the basemap gonna be safe enough to protect your setup? Knew a local in VA that had his boosted S2K blown on the dyno by the same incompetent tuner i first went to YEARS ago. 30psi... less than two pulls. BAM. Done. Plenty of engine parts to be used as paper weights...

[gtimportfanatic]

my good buddy at SoHonda Garage tunes my shit or i go to xenocron.. thats it! lol .. but out in NM isn't SQC supposed to be somewhat good? my friend made really good numbers there

[Deadphishy]

People don't understand why it takes me a week and two tanks of gas to tune my car. Every cam angle gets fully tuned on both primary and secondary lobes. Fuel and ignition. The. You have to tune the final product to blend all the can angle together during transition. Then you bracket the cam angles up/down 10/5/2 degrees to see if you pick up power anywhere then adjust and tweak if you do. sometimes the car make more power if the cam is rolling forward or back then I would at a flat advance.

[Ba82Ep3]

Yep... like "burping" the cam advance. : P

[urthworm]

Finally some people who agree! Ive tried explaining this to other kseries guys and they just dont get it!


my good buddy at SoHonda Garage tunes my shit or i go to xenocron.. thats it! lol .. but out in NM isn't SQC supposed to be somewhat good? my friend made really good numbers there
Yeah SQC is pretty good, but he wasnt really well know back when my car was boosted. I dont think he tunes out every cam angle, but his cars do come out with some pretty good numbers.

[Ba82Ep3]

There are people that know how to tune... and i think a majority of them DONT do it for a living. May sound backwards but... if all youre doing is trying to make a shop some $ in a limited amount of time... then that tuner really wont be able to unlock the ability of each setup.

Kinda the difference between a mechanic that spins wrenches for production versus someone that does it for the love of it. The guy tryna make $ is gonna cut corners in the interest of making $ and keeping his job, and will miss details often involved in getting the job done "just right".

The "burping" i think is necessary as a way to bleed off uneven pressure built through the act of the cams advancing as power is made. I say that as a general thought because i have also found it to be helpful on boosted setups where cam advance has been fixed for several thousand RPM... but boost pressure was a variable as it was being gradually built (SC in this case) and a little burp made more power with one or two fewer psi. Again... a general thought... and not trying to delve too deep off topic. lol

[urthworm]

I agree. shops cant really afford to spend a couple days tuning one car. So what they usually do is take the closed hondata base map calibration to your setup and smooth it out. Most cases the car makes good numbers on the dyno and pulls off the dyno running like a champ... until you start driving the car in the real world. Thats when all the lil hickups and gremlins become apparent.

[Powers]

... and this is why i tune my own shit. lol People really dunno how to tune... and honestly KPro isnt as hard or in depth as it could be.

The messed up thing is that first pull. Is the basemap gonna be safe enough to protect your setup? Knew a local in VA that had his boosted S2K blown on the dyno by the same incompetent tuner i first went to YEARS ago. 30psi... less than two pulls. BAM. Done. Plenty of engine parts to be used as paper weights...

Mind telling me who this is so I dont run into them? haha. Please tell me it wasn't shad at accuracy out in chesapeake.

[Powers]

... and this is why i tune my own shit. lol People really dunno how to tune... and honestly KPro isnt as hard or in depth as it could be.

The messed up thing is that first pull. Is the basemap gonna be safe enough to protect your setup? Knew a local in VA that had his boosted S2K blown on the dyno by the same incompetent tuner i first went to YEARS ago. 30psi... less than two pulls. BAM. Done. Plenty of engine parts to be used as paper weights...

Mind telling me who this was so I dont run into them? I hope it wasn't shad at accuracy he tuned my car. And after that was done one of his buddys put his boosted sk on the dyno.

[lemonhead228]

damn you put your car through some work. good job and thanks for posting.

as for tuning i need to read more into. really haven't interested me since i don't have kpro yet.

[dustyboner]

Nobody I took it to knew how to tune the full vtc or use hondata. They all tuned it like it was a bseries with 2 maps. turned of the knock sensor, Vtec oil pressure switch, blew my head gasket, just a bunch of shit, plus my custom kit was shitty and the oil return didn't flow right so I blew 3 turbos, stripped bolts, oil leaks. It all just added up.


yeah but it made hella torque.:pound:


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa147/dustyboner/torqueit_zpsbdeb7b69.jpg

[urthworm]

So after about a year of beating the hell out of my k24 setup I decided to go bigger. The car ran perfect without a single hiccup. However my rivals were beginning to catch up, so I decided to pull the motor and add a few goodies.

Wiseco 14.2 pistons vs wiseco 12.5
Carrillo pro-sa rods vs blueprint h-beam
Drag cartel stage 4 cams vs blueprint stage 2 (old version)
more porting on the head, plus back to stock head gasket
custom intake manifold with 90mm throttle body vs hybrid 70mm
New bearings, valve guides, valve stem seals
custom 4" intake vs hybrid cold air

The only thing I am lacking is a more aggressive header, and I would like a prayoonto or hayward manifold but I'm already spending more than I wanted. Plus I am pretty sure these manifolds are going to need more work to install then just bolting them on.

[FoReVaPmP]

Wow ... You've had fun with your EP.!!!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone

[urthworm]

Wow ... You've had fun with your EP.!!!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone

Yes sir I have lol.

[urthworm]

The new manifold and throttle body.

[urthworm]

Block is done.

sorry had to delete all latest pics.

[urthworm]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/20131215_105415_zpsa80150c8.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/20131215_105440_zpseaa4af22.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/20131201_155025_zps5f9f2740.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/20131201_154953_zps6f689d60.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/vwright01/Mobile%20Uploads/20131103_193905_zpse14598ae.jpg

[FoReVaPmP]

:popcorn:


Sent from my iPhone

[tlikethedrink]

Thumbs up.