What upgrades to K24A2 for more power?

[ryboto]

So, eventually, might go turbo, but that's WAY out there....in the short term, I'm wondering what I could do to bump performance from the barely over 200whp I'm seeing now.

Current setup-
06 K24A2 W/RBB
50*VTC(not in right now, will be soon)
Custom short intake
PLM/KRRH header, 2.5'' high flow cat, OBX twin loop
Z3 Trans internals in RSX case(6spd+LSD)
Avid motor mounts


Different intake manifold, cams, TB? Something else?

Ideas...
RBC/RRC ported/port matched/stock, 70mm hybrid racing TB/Type-S TB/other TB(overkill for stock cams), and thermal gaskets? Should net me something decent with the 50*VTC?

[klik]

Damn. Im in the process of a k24a2 swap and this is scary lol. What is your exaxt whp after kpro tuned? Ever think of jrsc?

[ryboto]

Again, it's estimated, and I could be 10hp above or below my actual whp because virtual dyno relies on accurate vehicle weight. Could also be a tune that isn't the best it could be.. I'm just using it as a point of reference. Best case, I might be around 210whp, but I still think it could get better. I don't want to spend that much on boosting just yet...first I'll finish this etune, then I'm planning a paint job, then I might get back into upgrading the performance beyond changing the intake around a bit.

So, I've got two suggestions from people so far in addition to Hondata thermal IMG-
RBC+70mm HR throttle body
RBC+RSX Type-S throttle body

[differentK]

type s throttle body is the same as the EP3 btw....

RBC port matched to a max bore stock TB, RSX-S CAI, 50deg VTC. you should see a significant bump from that. my best advice though- find a good tuner

[ryboto]

I just worry about CAI's up here...LOTS of slush/water in the winter. is it really going to make that much of a difference over an SRI?

[ryboto]

Would a K24A4 throttle body fit?

[differentK]

injen makes a hydro shield for CAI filters- i use one and it works like a charm. just avoid deep puddles if that wasn't obvious enough. i am not too sure about the k24a4 throttle body- i think it might be a drive by wire but dont quote me on that. just use your stock a3 throttle body. I have an extra one sitting in my parts bin if you really need one

[ryboto]

I asked because someone on k20a had a k24a4 throttle body for $20, on clubrsx there's a k20a throttle body already bored for $140...wasn't sure which would be the most economical. I can't be without my car, which is why I'm looking for another one to potentially have bored out.

[ryboto]

differentK, I'd PM you, but it says your inbox is full..

[klik]

Why didnt you slap a hondata gasket before you drop the motor in. I heard those gasket add 5% hp i could be wrong. I would consider stage 1 cams if you wanna stay allmotor.

[ryboto]

Why didnt you slap a hondata gasket before you drop the motor in. I heard those gasket add 5% hp i could be wrong. I would consider stage 1 cams if you wanna stay allmotor.

Installing a new gasket shouldn't be super difficult with the motor in, so I'm not worried about that. As for cams, maybe that's a bit beyond the upgrade budget I was thinking of I think...can you recommend something specific, brands to consider?

Would bigger injectors be a good bang for buck addition?

Also, is a 70mm K20A throttle body for $140 a good deal?

edit- now I'm hearing mixed opinions of tapered throttle bodies and straight through!

[Slip_Angle]

We have the same setup with the exception of the VTC. I have the 50* VTC.

Unless you get different aftermarket cams, the RBC will do nothing other than result in a loss of torque. You could go with a CAI or a custom AirBox to gain a bit more. The airbox will give you the security of no hydro lock possibility even though it's unlikely to happen.

If you want to make more power you'll need cams and an RRC manifold as logical next steps.

[ryboto]

We have the same setup with the exception of the VTC. I have the 50* VTC.

Unless you get different aftermarket cams, the RBC will do nothing other than result in a loss of torque. You could go with a CAI or a custom AirBox to gain a bit more. The airbox will give you the security of no hydro lock possibility even though it's unlikely to happen.

If you want to make more power you'll need cams and an RRC manifold as logical next steps.

You're the first person I've heard this from. Lots recommend RBC and port match TB to be the best bang for buck to take advantage of the 50*VTC. I read in a lot of threads that the RBB doesn't need beyond the stock 25*VTC. Unless you have other references? Even the 3 tuners I've been talking to about this engine have said I should see gains from going RBC.

[Slip_Angle]

You're the first person I've heard this from. Lots recommend RBC and port match TB to be the best bang for buck to take advantage of the 50*VTC. I read in a lot of threads that the RBB doesn't need beyond the stock 25*VTC. Unless you have other references? Even the 3 tuners I've been talking to about this engine have said I should see gains from going RBC.

I spoke with a number of well respected forum members (ephatch, k20a.org etc..) that tried it themselves and had the same results I did. I have tried running the RRC, which is better than the RBC although similar and it wasn't an improvement over the RBB with a mostly stock motor. IE: The mods we both run.

Most of what I see related to the RBC on a k24 is based on either;


1. People who run after market cams and produce more power vs the RBB (which makes sense)
2. What people have extrapolated based on #1

I have no skin in the game other than to say, I've tried it - dyno'd it and went back to the RBB. One caveat is that I am running the stock TB.

As for the RBB not needing anything beyond 25* of cam, I believe people repeat that based on this article Hondata wrote about a pre 2006 K24a2 (older cams)

http://www.hondata.com/tuning_k24a2_tsx_engine.html

Their testing also showed the RBC lost torque and made no appreciable power gains.. pre 2006 motor though..

My motor made the most power at 45* of CAM from 4000 - 6000 with the RBB. (04 K24a2 with 06 K24a2 cams)

[ryboto]

I spoke with a number of well respected forum members (ephatch, k20a.org etc..) that tried it themselves and had the same results I did. I have tried running the RRC, which is better than the RBC although similar and it wasn't an improvement over the RBB with a mostly stock motor. IE: The mods we both run.

Most of what I see related to the RBC on a k24 is based on either;


1. People who run after market cams and produce more power vs the RBB (which makes sense)
2. What people have extrapolated based on #1

I have no skin in the game other than to say, I've tried it - dyno'd it and went back to the RBB. One caveat is that I am running the stock TB.

As for the RBB not needing anything beyond 25* of cam, I believe people repeat that based on this article Hondata wrote about a pre 2006 K24a2 (older cams)

http://www.hondata.com/tuning_k24a2_tsx_engine.html

Their testing also showed the RBC lost torque and made no appreciable power gains.. pre 2006 motor though..

My motor made the most power at 45* of CAM from 4000 - 6000 with the RBB. (04 K24a2 with 06 K24a2 cams)


I saw some of the threads you posted in, I still can't make the conclusions you're making when I've got 3 tuners, a friend with experience with K-series engines, and someone else in this thread suggesting I'll see an improvement going to a larger TB with the RBC and 50*VTC. I may some day upgrade the cams, who knows.

Other option is getting the RBB and ep3 throttle body port matched, but that would mean I'd be without my car unless I bought a second RBB and a second throttle body...

[Slip_Angle]

Hey - Fair enough. I'm giving you direct experience from me and others that have tried it for themselves...

Did the tuners you spoke with actually test these specific combinations? I have almost the exact setup you do and those were the results. I even tuned my own car on the DynoJet and operated the Dyno so I do understand the tuning process well.

If your mind is set and you want to go through the experience yourself, then I would at least suggest you get the RRC over the RBC since it's a better version of the RBC and sets you up for a ton of power with a turbo.

[ryboto]

I can't speak to what these guys have seen, but it's what they're recommending...maybe they're experience has been with aftermarket cams..can't say.

I'd rather not spend that kind of money. I read so many people boasting about the RBC, but no one has dyno sheets of one vs the other, or if they do it's with the stock VTC gear, or some other piece of the puzzle that isn't the same as what I've got set up. I may just save my money and just add the VTC.. Beyond the VTC gear then, is there no other upgrades I could make to the K24A2 that are good bang for buck? A thermal insulator IMG? The Zerg & P2R are on ebay for ~$30..

edit RBB V RBC - then I find a thread like this where TalonXRacer chimes in....
http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?65169-PRB-RBB-and-RBC-questions-along-with-some-k24-swap-questions&highlight=

and a few posts where guys say they made more power and torque over the RBB with the RBC...but then someone suggested, maybe the tune used too much cam advance...so...now I think the cheapest way to go about things - swap VTC, see if I can benefit from cam advance, and if I do, save RBC/TB bore for FI, or cam upgrades if I ever do that...

[Slip_Angle]

Ya, the thermal insulator will keep the heat away from the manifold so you'll see less heat soak. Though, if you're running an SRI it's likely not going to help that much.

If you don't have a tune that has been done specific to your setup, that would be a good investment. e-tune / road tuning is great and will get you 95% to maximum power. If you want to spend more, goto a good dyno tuner for that extra few %

What tune are you using?

[ryboto]

Ya, the thermal insulator will keep the heat away from the manifold so you'll see less heat soak. Though, if you're running an SRI it's likely not going to help that much.

If you don't have a tune that has been done specific to your setup, that would be a good investment. e-tune / road tuning is great and will get you 95% to maximum power. If you want to spend more, goto a good dyno tuner for that extra few %

What tune are you using?
Well, on top of the vtc and IMG I would also grab a CAI. I guess it's a smarter starting point from a $$ point of view versus grabbing an RBC.

I am actually getting an etune now...but I'm not impressed by it. Getting some second opinions. After it's done I may visit a shop through a friend for a true tune.

[Slip_Angle]

Who's doing the e-tune? If you don't want to say publicly send me a PM. Send me the cal and I can have a look if you want. Also, if you want my calibration, I'm happy to share it...

[ryboto]

So, will I need to modify/move anything to get the CAI to fit? About to buy one, and just bought a thermal IMG.

[Slip_Angle]

I don't know that anything other than a custom CAI will fit but maybe someone else has found one that does. I custom made the one I had on.

[differentK]

if you are using the RBB manifold- no off the shelf CAI will fit for you. come to think of it- the RBC will also give a bit of a fitment issue as well due to the slanted angle of the inlet... but anything can fit with a little bit of imagination. do you still have the PRB manifold from your a3?

edit: inbox cleared BTW

[ryboto]

if you are using the RBB manifold- no off the shelf CAI will fit for you. come to think of it- the RBC will also give a bit of a fitment issue as well due to the slanted angle of the inlet... but anything can fit with a little bit of imagination. do you still have the PRB manifold from your a3?

edit: inbox cleared BTW
Didn't you suggest the Type-S CAI would fit fine?
edit-nm, saw that was suggesting the RBC. As for the PRB, I'm going to stick with the RBB since I don't have the PRB tapped, and I just don't want to deal with that unless I can bring it with me to a dyno and compare the two. Now I just have to decide between a custom CAI, or Slip_Angle's airbox experiment...the former would be much easier and faster to implement...

[lemonhead228]

are you looking for peak power?

A popular thing ppl are doing on k20a.org is **custom 3.5" intake**, 70/74mm tb, RBC/RRC, hondata IMG.

relocate the battery and put the filter behind the headlight or grill.

a PRB head can gain 20+ whp. slap some cams you'll hit 250+ whp with it.

3" exhaust would open up some extra power for sure.

[ryboto]

are you looking for peak power?

A popular thing ppl are doing on k20a.org is **custom 3.5" intake**, 70/74mm tb, RBC/RRC, hondata IMG.

relocate the battery and put the filter behind the headlight or grill.

a PRB head can gain 20+ whp. slap some cams you'll hit 250+ whp with it.

3" exhaust would open up some extra power for sure.

I think what I'm going to do for now, is a custom intake, keep the stock throttle body, RBB, use a thermal IMG and install the 50*VTC. I wont go through the trouble/cost of doing a TB bore until I decide to upgrade cams, and when/if I ever do that, I'd look into an RBC/RRC. If I have the extra cash to do something like that, I'd probably also drop in an Odyssey battery and relocate it.

[lemonhead228]

I think what I'm going to do for now, is a custom intake, keep the stock throttle body, RBB, use a thermal IMG and install the 50*VTC. I wont go through the trouble/cost of doing a TB bore until I decide to upgrade cams, and when/if I ever do that, I'd look into an RBC/RRC. If I have the extra cash to do something like that, I'd probably also drop in an Odyssey battery and relocate it.

You don't need cams to run the RBC and 70mm tb. You see gains with the stock block. You can also opt for a z1/z3 intake cam(keep Tsx exhaust cam) and see better gains up top.

The rbb design is long narrow runners which is for low- mid range. The design of the RBC/RRC is short big runners which are for top end. That being said the RBB produces AROUND 10 wtp over the RBC/RRC from 2-6k. By switching to the RBC/RRC you'll lose that mid range torque and gain 5-10+ whp up top depending on mods.

The k24a2 is a mid range motor that's why Honda pair the RBB to it. Like talonXracer say "k24 are the torque monster of k series"
If you like the torque(like me) run a 70mm tb with the rbb(bore match) and 3.5" intake

[ryboto]

The k24a2 is a mid range motor that's why Honda pair the RBB to it. Like talonXracer say "k24 are the torque monster of k series"
If you like the torque(like me) run a 70mm tb with the rbb(bore match) and 3.5" intake

I would do exactly that if I could find someone around here that could bore them as cheaply as maxbore...otherwise, this is my DD, can't be without it. Could potentially buy an RBB and extra throttle body....

[lemonhead228]

I would do exactly that if I could find someone around here that could bore them as cheaply as maxbore...otherwise, this is my DD, can't be without it. Could potentially buy an RBB and extra throttle body....

Instead of buying another rbb get a RBC. They go for around 150-200. Karcept adaptor is like 70 iirc.

3" exhaust would show some good gains also

[ryboto]

Instead of buying another rbb get a RBC. They go for around 150-200. Karcept adaptor is like 70 iirc.

3" exhaust would show some good gains also

Well, I have a 2.5'', no sense in replacing the exhaust now that I've spent the time and money on this one. I have the karcept adapter, RBB wouldn't work without it. I don't see the point in the RBC if I don't buy new cams.

[WhiteComet]

+1 For RBB

I'm running an 08 k24a2 with a custom 3.5CAI 50gearand couldnt be happier with the RBB.

Just keep in mind there is an RBB v2 version out there from the newer TSXs when they changed the engines in 07. There was a dyno on club tsx comparing the RBB v1 and the RBB v2, and the v2 gave out like 2 more Hp/torque across the entire revband.

[lemonhead228]

Well, I have a 2.5'', no sense in replacing the exhaust now that I've spent the time and money on this one. I have the karcept adapter, RBB wouldn't work without it. I don't see the point in the RBC if I don't buy new cams.

What's the point of buying the same rbb? Just to get it port march and get stuck with another one..

[cyllarus]

if you are using the RBB manifold- no off the shelf CAI will fit for you.

not true, the injen CAI WILL fit and quite nicely:
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/GargleSpam/100_2370.jpg

Ryboto: I would trust Slip on his opinion of the RBB / RBC, he has always had good advice for me that turned out to be true when it came to k24s

[jri93]

heres my 2 cents. dont waste money on a throttle body. in your position i would definitely start with the thermal intake gasket and a CAI. its amazing what cooler air intake temps can do for the power of an engine.

also, i dont know why everyone is so obsessed with the rbc and rbb. im running a port matched/ slightly polished prb on my k24a2 and made 230hp and 205tq. granted it was on a dynapack which is said to read slightly higher than a dynojet. the best part about the prb is that it allows you to run any ep3 air intake. and if your worried about tapping the water port, dont be, it takes 5 minutes.

[ryboto]

Well, I found out I have an 05 intake cam in the engine...so, now that opens up plans for the future....Staying NA, what should I save up for(aside from stage 2 cams?) to make the most power I can? These would still need to be upgrades I could install without pulling the engine...
-cams, oil pump...back to RBC again?

edit- got the CAI installed, might move the battery in the future to shorten the tubing. Will install the IMG when I install the 50*VTC enventually...

http://imageshack.us/a/img853/908/xjm4.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/xjm4.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img6/9708/bxvf.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/bxvf.jpg/)

[klik]

I like that in take set up. Can you pm me list of parts and how you did that cai. Thanks! are you using velocity stack type filter.

[ryboto]

So, right now I'm looking at some IPS KME 11 cams for sale....should I jump on em? What else would I need for these to work in a stock K24A2? Springs? Retainers? Anything else?

edit- Guess they weren't for sale :( What's the next best thing?

edit- research has led me to SVM, Drag Cartel(DIC or 2.2?), and Prayoonto(Stage 2?)...just not sure which is the best for 50*VTC, and if the 50*VTC is even necessary to make the most power?