Best performance per dollar handling improvements?

[LostHighway]

I just acquired an '04 EP3 with just under 81k miles. The wheels and suspension are basically stock. A prior owner had lowered it on Tien springs but the guy I bought it from took it back to stock ride height with OEM Honda springs and replaced the rear shocks at 40k. The front struts are the originals. The car won't be tracked, it is my daily driver although I haven't entirety decided what to do about winter.

Here is what I'm thinking;
Tires are a necessity. It currently is wearing 205/55/16 Nokian WRG2. They might have a season post 2013 left in them but they would be dodgy in even very light snow. If I decide to drive it through the winter and not get dedicated winter wheels I'll definitely be buying Conti ExtremeContact DWS. If the car isn't used in winter or if I get dedicated winter wheels that opens up the options of Bridgestone Potenza S-04, Conti Extreme Contact DW or maybe BF Goodrich g-force Sport COMP-2. Advice on tires or sizes?

Maybe a larger rear sway bar? Which one?

Possible conversion to RSX A-Spec. If I'm less ambitious or poorer I'm thinking just going with yellow Konis in the front and staying with stock springs. I might do a full front suspension bushing replacement at the same time, maybe the Hardrace plus new OEM Honda bushings. In any event I would not be lowering it anymore than the 1" drop (?) the A-Spec kit delivers and maybe not lowering it at all.

Camber plates? Which ones?

New lighter wheels, probably 16" but maybe 17", might be in the cards but nothing exotic, just cheap cast wheels like Rotasm Kazeras, Focals, etc.

Suggestions? How to prioritize? Where do the dollars most effectively translate into noticeable handling improvements?

[Slip_Angle]

Solid thinking.

I prefer using mostly stock Honda/Acura parts for maximum reliability, while still providing great performance.

Curious why you would want camber plates or even non-stock camber settings if you aren't going to track it or autocross? I would recommend tires but I'm not entirely sure what your looking for? Maximum grip or best bang for the buck performance tire?

In order of performance benefit.

1. Tires (17 Inch) 215/45-17 or 225/45-17
2. 22mm rear sway (RSX-S)
3. A-Spec
4. Camber bolts

[dble0]

Just to reinforce previous poster.... Tires are a huge deal, everybody loves the type s rear sway and it is cheap if you know where to look. Me personally, my favorite investment is my facelift type r headlights with the tsx retrofit.... There is no point in having a fast and fun car if you can only see what you are doing during the day.

[Powers]

I'm going to be agreeing with slip angle on all of that. Tires are always the first thing that should be done to improve your cars handling. If your going to drive through the winter the continentals are a good choice. If your going to get a summer set get something real sticky. Like r comps. The r comps do wear out much quicker but if your only driving on them in the good weather you should get some good use out of them.

When picking your tires look at the UTQG rating. The higher that number is the harder the rubber it will be meaning it will last longer but will not handle as good. A lower rating would give your tire a softer rubber it would handle great and would wear out quicker.

[LostHighway]

Solid thinking.

I prefer using mostly stock Honda/Acura parts for maximum reliability, while still providing great performance.

Curious why you would want camber plates or even non-stock camber settings if you aren't going to track it or autocross? I would recommend tires but I'm not entirely sure what your looking for? Maximum grip or best bang for the buck performance tire?

In order of performance benefit.

1. Tires (17 Inch) 215/45-17 or 225/45-17
2. 22mm rear sway (RSX-S)
3. A-Spec
4. Camber bolts

Thanks, Slip Angle

In tires I'm looking for maximum grip per dollar (tread life factored in). Conti DW & BF Goodrich g-Sport COMP-2 have a UTQG of 340 AA A, soft but not crazy soft to my uniformed eye. Bridgestone Potenza S-04 are rated at 280 AA A. However, I haven't owned any of these and I know from past experience with other tires that UTQG isn't an infallible guide to tread life. I do have Conti DWS on another vehicle and I like them very much. Tread wear seems very reasonable but then again they are 540 A A , a whole different animal.

215/45/17 sound really good except for the part that immediately commits me to another $600 - $800 in new wheels. What offset would I be looking for? 40mm? Suggestions, especially high quality, low weight per dollar suggestions?

I asked about camber because I'm ignorant and I wasn't sure if there a street benefit.

dble0 Where would one look for a cheap RSX sway bar? Please PM me if this question runs afoul of forum rules. I'll have to do some research on the headlight conversion.

[Draw7Seven]

I'll edit your post and let you know via PM if you break a rule. You're fine.

I personally think Enkei RPF-1's are the best meeting ground of build quality, price, and weight. People will argue that they're "played out" or something but sometimes things are popular with good reason. Name a wheel as strong and light for 1000 shipped per set.

There are probably a shit ton of sway bars over on clubrsx.com, a popular forum for DC5 enthusiasts. You could keep an eye on their classifieds for a few weeks and get an idea of what a good deal would be.

I also agree that properly engineered (projector with cutoff) HID's are the best mod you can put on an EP because you use them no matter how fast or slow you're going, and they're the perfect combination of form and function. You can read up on the retrofit of TSX projectors into Depo headlights. I have no experience whatsoever in wiring or headlights and I did a fairly decent job of them when I did it. However that's a little off topic in this thread so I'll leave it there.

[Slip_Angle]

Camber in a straight line reduces traction and in a corner increases it. Knowing that and that you don't track the car, I would go with no camber. I agree with Draw7Seven's choice of wheels, they are great.

Tires are subjective to a degree. I'm a fan of autocross class tires because the grip level is amazing, however it sounds like you want a good compromise. How long do you expect/want your tires to last?

I have Hankook EVO V-12's on my car and they are pretty good for the street. Good grip, good tread life and good road manners. Not good for autocross as they don't have the grip levels to be competitive plus they over heat and chunk under that kind of stress. Not sure I would get them again but for the money they are decent.

After looking on the TireRack, the S-04 is basically the same price as the Hankook's. Do you know how they compare?

[Slip_Angle]

Had a look at some comparisons and it looks like the Evo V12's are old news now. S-04's look like a pretty good choice from what I've read.

[LostHighway]

I would like to see 20k+ miles out of the tires. From what I have read that seems do-able, maybe just barely do-able, for the S-04. 90% of the time I'm a pretty tame driver but given a twisty, largely empty road in not bad condition I like to play a little. I'm not at all a stop light grand prix wantabe drag racer. On further research I think I'm primarily interested in the Bridgestone S-04 followed by the Conti DW (it sounds like they should be good for 30k+). I think the BF Goodrich is running a distant third but without driving them it is all guesswork.

The Enkeis look nice although almost scary light for a cast rim. I don't have a jaded eye so the "played out" aspect doesn't bother me. I have heard the same comment about the Rota Mugen copies. I wouldn't be buying the rims to please anyone but myself.

Thanks to everyone on this thread for your help. I recognize that I have a lot of catching up to do.

[AKEP]

tires are the biggest factor. the best bang for the buck tire is the continental extremecontact dw. once they warm up they're sticky. I have a hard time locking those up with ep brakes and hawk pads. i bought my 225/50's for about $105 each, so they're plenty cheaper than star specs, and only a little bit more than hit or miss 70-80 "performance" tires that i'll keep nameless. easily the best $$:Performance tire.

[powdbyrice]

i have the s04s on my 07 tl type-s. love them, but they only last 25000 miles and thats daily commuting, no track/autocross. and they're fairly expensive. 200+ each installed for a 245/45/17

i had bfg gforce sport on my ep in 215/45/17 and 235/40/17. price is right and i got like 50000+ miles out of the first set. i liked them a lot. obviously since i got a second set. ill likely get a set for the tl when the s04s are done (on second set of those too)

ive read good things about the v12s, but dont have any direct experience with them.

[poeticfinesse21]

16x7 +40 konig feathers wrapped with 225/50R16 continental extremecontact DW. The whole setup cost me about $1000 shipped from discounttiredirect.com and they mount and balance the tires for free if you buy wheels too. There's no need for 17's on a stock EP3 that will never see any track or autocross. I plan on getting continental extremewintercontact tires for the winter.

[mitchlikesbikes]

just my .02, but my 235 wide conti DWS tires aren't all that great in the snow. if you wanna do it right get some winter wheels and blizzaks for winter and some more aggressive summer tires on some wider nicer summer wheels (like evo VIII enkeis)

[powdbyrice]

16x8 rpf1

[LostHighway]

just my .02, but my 235 wide conti DWS tires aren't all that great in the snow. if you wanna do it right get some winter wheels and blizzaks for winter and some more aggressive summer tires on some wider nicer summer wheels (like evo VIII enkeis)

I hear that. The only way I'd even try the DWS year round was if I stuck with the stock 205/55/16 tire size. Ideally, I'd like to get some 15" steel wheels for winter with 195/65 snows. I've never owned the Blizzaks. I've driven them but not in super icy or deep snow conditions. We have the Michelin X-Ice (previous generation to the current Xi3) on one of our other cars and my impression was that they were a little less squirmy/more solid feeling than the Blizzaks on semi-dry roads but everything I've heard tips the Blizzaks in really bad conditions.

I'm still mulling summer wheel/tire options. Budget is definitely going to be a factor. The low rent option would be to stick to the stock wheels and mount 215/50? If I buy new alloys I'll probably buy 17s with the intent of probably running 215/45. The Enkei RPF1 or PF01 are tempting from a weight standpoint but at $60 less per wheel the Enkei Tuning Fujin also has some appeal. I discovered that the Rota Circuit 10s aren't exactly light so I guess I've written off that option. Anything else I should consider in inexpensive 17" rims? I have to figure out the offset issue too. Tire-wise I'm liking what I've read about the Conti Extreme Contact DW especially if I drop down to a 45 aspect ratio. Practicality is really the order of the day here. I have no illusions that I'm Ayrton Senna or Juan Manuel Fangio nor do I have the budget for anything too ambitious in the way of mods.

I am curious about the Depo/TSX lights mod. I was hoping to find a single coherent thread that lays it all out clearly but so far, if it exists, I haven't uncovered it.

Thanks again to everyone.

[poeticfinesse21]

Konig feathers come in 17x7 +40 and they are fairly light. 16.8 lbs each I believe and it's about $520 shipped for the set of four. The 16's are only 15 lbs each :mbiggrin:

[mitchlikesbikes]

find a local evo VIII or IX guy selling his stock enkeis. they are 17 x 8 +38 and look awesome on ep3s. and they're pretty cheap usually (i got my set for like 175)

[LostHighway]

Konig feathers come in 17x7 +40 and they are fairly light. 16.8 lbs each I believe and it's about $520 shipped for the set of four. The 16's are only 15 lbs each :mbiggrin:


Thanks, I did look those up after reading your previous post. I think they look nice and the price is very right. I just don't have a clear idea of how light is too light, or at least pushing the edges of the envelope, in a cast rim. The roads in Maine generally aren't in great condition but fortunately it tends to be more of the cracked and lumpy style of bad condition as opposed to rim killer deep potholes with sharp edges.

My thought on going to 17" wheels was partially driven by leaning toward the Conti DW tires. The Contis are really light, four pounds lighter than a Bridgestone S-04 in the same size and the rap is that they have overly soft sidewalls. I may be completely off base but I was thinking that a 215/45/17 would at least slightly ameliorate that issue in terms of handling feel relative to the same tire in 215/50/16. I'm not fixated on 17' rims.

Again I may be wrong but I'm thinking that I have neither the engine, chassis or skills to want to go wider than 215s. Also, I have no clear idea of how wide a tire you can run on either 16" or 17" rims at either stock or A-Spec ride heights and without rolled fenders (no desire to do that).

[Zzyzx]

best improvement per dollar? Driving school. I kid you not, go spend your $$ for a weekend or more at an actual racing school.

Else, as others have said... Tires tires tires.

[tlikethedrink]

Thanks, I did look those up after reading your previous post. I think they look nice and the price is very right. I just don't have a clear idea of how light is too light, or at least pushing the edges of the envelope, in a cast rim. The roads in Maine generally aren't in great condition but fortunately it tends to be more of the cracked and lumpy style of bad condition as opposed to rim killer deep potholes with sharp edges.

My thought on going to 17" wheels was partially driven by leaning toward the Conti DW tires. The Contis are really light, four pounds lighter than a Bridgestone S-04 in the same size and the rap is that they have overly soft sidewalls. I may be completely off base but I was thinking that a 215/45/17 would at least slightly ameliorate that issue in terms of handling feel relative to the same tire in 215/50/16. I'm not fixated on 17' rims.

Again I may be wrong but I'm thinking that I have neither the engine, chassis or skills to want to go wider than 215s. Also, I have no clear idea of how wide a tire you can run on either 16" or 17" rims at either stock or A-Spec ride heights and without rolled fenders (no desire to do that).

ive had 4 sets of konigs and have never had a problem. im a fan of 17s... but if your really worried about the rim structure go with the 16s (extra tire).

i would go 225s. cant go wrong with a little extra grip! one of the best mods ive done have been the wheels/tires. and my tires are nothing special (falkens)!

the aspec suspension is also the way to go. i wish i would have gone with the aspec the first time. the ride and handling is a perfect balance. plus its set and oem quality > coilovers.

try criagslist for a rear sway... i found mine for $25. or try the dealer, might be suprised with a decent price. if you do that try for the aspec sway its supposed to be around 30-32mm as opposed to the 22mm type s. you may even be able to find a 19mm 02-04 type s rear sway cheap or free!

[AKEP]

[QUOTE=LostHighway;1008754...but everything I've heard tips the Blizzaks in really bad conditions.

I'm still mulling summer wheel/tire options. Budget is definitely going to be a factor. Tire-wise I'm liking what I've read about the Conti Extreme Contact DW especially if I drop down to a 45 aspect ratio. Practicality is really the order of the day here.[/QUOTE]

I have the blizzaks on my father in laws tacoma with no abs and awd, i put it in a ditch with fresh snow on grass and was able to rock my way out with the awd, not that its any feat of god or anything but growing up in alaska, i actually felt like i was about to lose that battle. but i won. not a bad tire, doesn't wear out when they get warm too, we use them all year 'round.

and yeah, i have the DW's, a few of my friends have the DW's, easily the best tire i've ever had and it's impressed my friends. when they're cold, they still have some good grip, esp if you're not boosted, its going to be REALLY hard to break them loose. even boosted, it's hard to get them loose when they warm up. really good tire, esp for the price.

[Hasbro]

Been away for a week so missed this thread. The best bang for buck is tires. If you are set on 340 UTQG tires you are already compromising your initial question. I'm simplifying but your car will only handle as well as your tires will allow. Colin Chapman (creator of Lotus) designed his cars around the best tire he could find. So, are you sticking with your original question or do you wish to make your car handle as well as a (for instance) 340 UTQG tire will allow? Are you willing to consider better handling street tires and a set of winter tires or do you wish to compromise? No wrong answer here, just clarifying.

[LostHighway]

Been away for a week so missed this thread. The best bang for buck is tires. If you are set on 340 UTQG tires you are already compromising your initial question. I'm simplifying but your car will only handle as well as your tires will allow. Colin Chapman (creator of Lotus) designed his cars around the best tire he could find. So, are you sticking with your original question or do you wish to make your car handle as well as a (for instance) 340 UTQG tire will allow? Are you willing to consider better handling street tires and a set of winter tires or do you wish to compromise? No wrong answer here, just clarifying.

As noted up the thread I think a 20k miles + usable life (street use only) tire is my minimum bar to get over and April through October or November use only with dedicated snow tires for the winter months is certainly a strong possibility. IME UTQG is far from an infallible guide to real world tread life as I have seen some rated softer tires out last those with a higher UTQG. From everything I've read including replies to this thread the Conti DW will do more than 20k easily. The Bridgestone S-04 sounds like the 20k ballpark is a reasonable expectation but not well beyond that. Other than than the BF Goodrich I haven't looked into too many other tires. Something like Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD07s aren't even on my radar ($! + tread life) nor are tires that have great grip on dry roads but suck in rain.

If practicality and dollars were not an issue I'd be driving a Caterham or an Ariel Atom instead of an EP3.

[Hasbro]

UTQG ratings aren't infallible but tire tests show just how much better several of them are at handling. 20k is a pretty high expectation for a superior handling tire but I had close to that with my old Kumhos XSes and could have gotten 20k by not leaving them on the front so long. Another thing to consider is how old the tires will be when they attain those miles. If you have a set of snows how old will they be by 20k? Since I drive only 6 or 7k a year the tire's handling are less than optimum by 15 or 20k so the age of the tire is more important to me than mileage.

Anyway, you might consider the Dunlop ZIIs or BFG Rivals for the most superior handling street tires. The Rival is overall the best handler of the two by a smidge and is more audible at it's limits of adhesion (a good thing) but the ZIIs are a little bit better in the wet. 225s are doable on the stock 6.5" rims. A minimum of -1 to -1.5 camber up front and about half that for the rears are pretty essential for handling with very little affect on treadwear, just keep toe under 1/16". With 0 camber (static) up front the EP3 develops positive camber during compression. Straight line traction really isn't a factor with wider stickier tires at such low camber. One could argue that Extreme Performance Summer tires are too much for the stock suspension (or A-Specs with a 3/4" drop) but for the street they are a blast.

If you have to have 20k then you've received plenty of good advice; an S bar can be had for cheap on CRSX.com, A-Specs dampers are pretty sweet and trouble free, adjustable camber. Also, I wouldn't even consider a performance tire in Maine without snows! Weight reduction is also a cheap handling mod but that's another level that you might not want to mess with. So, not A level but tons of fun for those sweet mountain roads you have up there. After some nice brake pads, of course! The EP has abysmal pads.

[LostHighway]

Hasbro, I certainly understand your points but this car is a daily driver and 95%+ of my driving is unlikely to tax the adhesion limits of something like the Conti DW or Bridgestone S-04. I just can't justify having to replace tires twice as often for a difference that is likely to only be really tested a few hundred miles per year, if that.

Right now new spring through fall tires are a given but they will probably be a compromise like the DW. A new rear sway bar is also a very likely purchase. New wheels are a maybe as are A-Spec conversion and the Depo/TSX headlight conversion. If I don't do the full A-Spec kit I'll probably ay least put yellow Koni struts in.

For now I'm trying to decide among 225/50/16 and 215/45/17 or 225/45/17 tires and rims. With zero drop or only A-spec drop and the fenders not rolled are there any rubbing/clearance issues with 225s?

[Zzyzx]

well, then I can not under emphasize the importance of a proper alignment. Given you've more or less chosen your tire. As keeping your tires in their happy place is the next best thing to having better tires.

So remember to budget in a camber kit for both the front & rear.

[poeticfinesse21]

If you're just going to replace the shocks then go with bilsteins. The bilstein shocks sold here are the same ones sold in europe for the EP3 Type-R

[Hasbro]

I doubt that you'll have any rubbing problems with the sizes you're considering as long as your wheel offset is correct at around 37mm. Extreme Summer 225 sidewalls may rub a little on the inside rear as they run a little wider overall width (and tread) than your choices on the stock wheels (45mm offset). Maybe a little up front, too. An 8.5' wide wheel may require a 5mm rear spacer due to lower arm rubbing but that's about it at your suggested height, I think. A 21 or 22mm bar, A-Specs, camber kit, and mild alignment sounds perfect for you.

http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?63243-High-Performance-Street-Alignments

[poeticfinesse21]

I'm running a DC5 Type-R suspension which is about the same drop as A-spec/HFP and I have no rubbing issues although I did roll my rear fenders "just in case".

[LostHighway]

Thanks again guys, you've been more than generous in educating me.

Poeticfinesse21, I did read your Bilstein thread and while I believe that Bilsteins are better I think dollars will probably rule them out for me. I'll be buying new tires and maybe rims as well as a set of winter wheels (unless I decide to get a winter beater and garage the EP3 from late November through March). I also have to deal with the captive plate mounting nuts on the hatch which are rusting and just starting to spread their contagion to the metal of the hatch itself. If I had deeper pockets the whole car could benefit for a good repaint, @#!* NHBP, but I may consider just having the hood resprayed plus some touch ups. Once all that is paid for I can consider suspension work.

Hasbro (and anyone else), what do you like for brake pads that improve on stock performance but aren't noisy and don't produce tons of dust? Hawk HPS? StopTech Street Performance? Akebono Performance? or ???

[poeticfinesse21]

I think the general consensus for a daily driven car is hawk hps, some blank rotors ( nothing fancy, any will do) and if you want better brake pedal response, some stainless steel brake lines.

[Hasbro]

HPS; tried and true. If I didn't require more extreme pads I'd be curious to try the Hawk ceramics as they aren't too expensive, easy on rotors, very little dust, and supposedly do a decent job. Just what I've heard, not an endorsement.

[shanewdude]

I just wanted to add my $0.02. TIRES. For sure. I'm on BF Goodrich g-force Sport COMP-2 right now, and LOVE THEM. Stiff, great "feel", sticky, ok in rain. Crap in snow or sub zero C. For snow I have BFG Winter Slalom, and love them too. If you get sticky tires, you probably will drive a little more aggressively a little more often. I also agree about the rear sway. I'm on a CTR rear sway, and it's great.

I always want to improve my car's looks with a set of wheels, but then my stock height (which is a little lower than everyone else stock height that I've run into at meets) would look odd. I actually really like the handling of my car with just the rear sway and tires. Tires make the biggest difference, though.

[poeticfinesse21]

Anytime I hear someone complain about how shitty a set of summer tires are in the cold/snow, it makes me laugh

[Zzyzx]

get some good DOT 5.1 brake fluid. ATE super blue/type200 fluid would not be a bad choice (its got a pretty low moisture absorption rate vs other 5.1 fluids)

the car can recover from pad fade... but if you boil the fluid you have to get the lines bled.

[shanewdude]

Anytime I hear someone complain about how shitty a set of summer tires are in the cold/snow, it makes me laugh

You're implying I can't feel the difference between my summer and winter tires when it's cold. Or the difference between my summer tires in 25 degrees C and 5 degrees C. Please explain your source of entertainment.

[poeticfinesse21]

They're summer tires, of course they're going to be horrible in any weather below 40 degrees. They're not meant to be used in the cold, they turn into ice skates. Most summer tires are recommended to not be driven below 50 degree weather.