Hondata releases the K20A3-Si Civic flash upgrade [Archive]

OldSIMan

01-17-2003, 12:33 PM

If you're interested, email me:
ForwardThrust@Hotmail.com

Price is $595 and includes overnight shipping to and from Hondata.

I'll need to know the following information:
Name
Address
City, State, Zip
Email Address
Phone number

ECM (ECU) Serial number
Desired Rev Limit
Air Intake - Stock, CAI, etc. If modified, manufacturer.
Exhaust - Stock, Aftermarket, etc. If modified, manufacturer.
Cams - Stock, Aftermarket, etc. If modified, manufacturer.
Do you have a Hondata Heatshield Gasket?

After receiving the information, and making payment arrangements, I'll send you a box to ship your ECM, immobilizer, and key to Hondata in. Also included will be two prepaid overnight shiiping slips, along with an information form that MUST be signed by you, and more detailed instructions.

I'll be sending my ECM in Monday, 1/20/03, and will post about the experience.
:D

31102si

01-17-2003, 12:38 PM

Nice gain in power.

autojive

01-17-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by hamproof
improvement over stock on dyno.

I guess we'll learn later why with CAI and header, the dyno showed no improvements but manage to get 1s. less 0-60.

It's the extra 900 RPM per gear that we now have to play with that's responsible for the faster 0-60 time(no need to shift to 3rd which can take more than .5 seconds).

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 12:47 PM

hamproof,

Doug will obviously cover more later, but it appears that the interaction of the header and intake causes some low rpm losses. Either that, or An's car simply wasn't as strong on the bottom end as Rick's. Note that even when Rick's car was stock, it made as much or more torque than An's on the bottom end.

The headers do appear to help sustain power on the top end as the curve doesn't roll off as fast. IMO, the reason there was such a big improvement in 0-60 times is as follows:

1. No need to shift to 3rd gear to get to 60 - that's worth 0.3-0.5 seconds depending on the driver.

2. Look at the average power. If you shift at 6900 rpm in 1st gear, what rpm do you drop down to? What is the power there. Now shift at 7700 rpm and see where you drop down to. What is the power there? By my calculations using An's graph the average hp for the stock ECU car is 129.7 hp in 2nd gear (assuming a first gear shift at redline) while the avg hp for the flashed car is 139.4 hp. That's an average gain of 7%, which is pretty substantial and accounts for the rest of the acceleration improvements

3. The extra torque on the bottom end, smoothing out the curve, makes the car a bit easier to launch as well.

SC

SiRman

01-17-2003, 12:55 PM

Also released today is a K20A2 flash upgrade for the Civic Si ECU. This is specifically if you are doing an K20A or K20A2 engine swap. This upgrade will reflash your Civic Si ECU with the Hondata K20A or K20A2 programs. Instead of putting your money towards a replacement ECU, it could be put towards a Hondata ECU upgrade instead.

Just as I suspected, so our ECU can be programed to control
K20A2 VTEC.

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 12:59 PM

I expected better gains with the CAI and headers, I am making more torque and hp than that now. hmmm.:confused:

atl-si

01-17-2003, 01:03 PM

So...this basically means that I/H with Hondata ECU has no gains. That sucks I think.

OldSIMan

01-17-2003, 01:03 PM

Considering the difference in results between the two cars, I'm anxious to get my car done, and dyno'd, since I have measurements for stock, CAI, and the heatshield gasket.
I agree just raising the rev limit accounts for most of the 0-60 improvement.

atl-si

01-17-2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
I expected better gains with the CAI and headers, I am making more torque and hp than that now. hmmm.:confused:
Do you have your dyno slip?

atl-si

01-17-2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by OldSIMan
Considering the difference in results between the two cars, I'm anxious to get my car done, and dyno'd, since I have measurements for stock, CAI, and the heatshield gasket.
I agree just raising the rev limit accounts for most of the 0-60 improvement.
Good let us know.

autojive

01-17-2003, 01:07 PM

MyEverLovin,
It looks to me like the car with the CAI and header still had the stock exhaust making a bottleneck there (someone correct me if I am wrong on this). I would still like to see what would happen to a flashed car with I/H/E.

02SilverSiHB

01-17-2003, 01:07 PM

whoa? 140whp is stock? that's the best I've seen yet...seem weird to any of you? But none the less....10hp gain is awsome!

atl-si

01-17-2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by autojive
MyEverLovin,
It looks to me like the car with the CAI and header still had the stock exhaust making a bottleneck there (someone correct me if I am wrong on this). I would still like to see what would happen to a flashed car with I/H/E.

I was wondering the same too. Oh well, someone will try and let us know. As far as, $600 bucks for 10 hp, I think that is awesome. Time to beg the wife!;)

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by atl-si

Do you have your dyno slip?

Check this (http://ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6068&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)

I guess that a flash is really not going to make any diff. for me. Damn! I was hoping to get over the 160hp hump. Guess I'll have to wait for JRSC, or make a decent head swap. :(

OldSIMan

01-17-2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
whoa? 140whp is stock? that's the best I've seen yet...seem weird to any of you? But none the less....10hp gain is awsome!

I thought so too, my car baselined at 134hp - peak, 139whp - peak with AEM-CAI, 143whp with CAI and heatshield gasket. If I get another 7hp I'll be at the 150whp mark, which is my target. Should make a decent auto-x'er against those pesky Ford's. :D

ep3guy

01-17-2003, 01:59 PM

Hi everyone, I'm An. I'm the one with the intake and header. I think after the exhaust, it'll free up a lot of room for air flow after the header. I think the upgrade is worth it alone for just the higher redline. With the upgrade, it's like your car turned into a beast. :D

Here's a part of my email to Doug.
--
Everything is great. Now that I had a chance to drive around in the streets more, I noticed that there was A LOT more power down low also. I accelerated like how I normally would, but now I end up about 3 cars ahead of the cars behind me. I'm usually with traffic. I don't think the dyno graphs do enough justice.
--

P.S. Shifting at about 8200 on your tach is just... :eek:

2k2SiGuy

01-17-2003, 02:54 PM

Getting to sixty in second means third is over 90, and probably higher trap speeds in the quarter too......

sancho61

01-17-2003, 03:00 PM

Please remember that the stock Si had 87 octane and no CAI; while the reflashed Si had 91 octane, an AEM CAI and the Flash program. Most of the power gains shown on the dino came from the CAI About 7 or 8 HP gain and the 91 octane about 2 HP gain. The flash itself only netted a 1-3 HP gain. What the Flash really gives is a higher 7700 rpm REV limit. This in turn gives better times in 0 to 60 as you do not need to shift to third to reach 60 mph.

Az02Si

01-17-2003, 03:07 PM

I just got my ecu back from Hondata TODAY.OMG this is how the car SHOULD HAVE FELT from the factory.I am COMPLETLY STOCK motorwise,and just added the flashed ecu....The car has a damn top end now!And im shifting to 4th at almost 90mph instead of that weak 82-83 crap.Thats what i really missed about my B16...The topend.Sorry but STOCK the k20a3 topend sucks,but trust me,this ecu REALLY woke the car up.It feels like a nice,SMOOTH shift in the powerband,with some nice extra midrange power thrown in for good measure.Something about the sound of out motor approaching 8K that makes me warm and fuzzy inside ;)

gpt

01-17-2003, 03:15 PM

I just did a comparison of the Hondata published HP figures for the Si, RSX and RSX-S in various states of tune, please see my chart below. The figures are only approx as I had to copy from the charts provided by Hondata. Looks good but obviously there is still a lot to learn about the K20A3!

http://www3.telus.net/gtoms01/hondata.GIF

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 03:36 PM

That is a relatively good rep. of the lay of the land gpt. Just as I was saying before, I am making more hp and tq than a hondata tuned RSX type-s upto 6500 rpm. This is without the hondata flash. Shame, but I find it very hard to justify spending $600 on a higher rev. limit and nothing more. I just spoke with my hondata dealer and hopefully he will have all the necessary tools to make that little rev. limit adjustment and tuning for much less in the future. Unfortunately Hondata's software (inclusion of serial #'s in their flashes) makes that difficult for dealers at this point. Patience did not pay off as I hoped it would in this instance.

IceD out N CALI

01-17-2003, 04:14 PM

10hp gain is a pretty respectable gain. good job hondadata-now gotta save save

S800Racer

01-17-2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
whoa? 140whp is stock? that's the best I've seen yet...seem weird to any of you? But none the less....10hp gain is awsome!

That's very weird, especially on 87 octane! But different dynos will give different numbers. I also wish Hondata had compared apples to apples and run the stock motor on the same octane as the flashed motor. However, the improvement in the stock motor HP is awesome.

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 04:47 PM

myeverlovinsir,

I think you might not be looking at the whole picture here. Hondata has tested the flash on two cars. The totally stock car picked up 10 hp and pretty convincing gains. When it had the AEM mounted it picked up another 5 hp. If you reversed the order of modifications, the AEM would probably make more and the Hondata less - that's how it usually works, first mod makes the most power.

The car with intake and header picked up almost nothing below 6k except in a couple of places. In fact, even before the flash it was making less torque down low than the totally stock car, and far less than the stock car with flash.

What does this all mean? The answer is, no quite knows for sure. From a sales perspective, Hondata would have probably been better served to just post the stock car, stock car w/flash and stock car w/flash and AEM. But Doug is an honest guy who is interested in informing people - more info is better as far as he is concerned.

For your car, will you see gains? That is an unknown. Well, not quite, you will see gains on the top end, and the extra 800 rpm of rev range will help your acceleration a lot. You'll also see gains below 2000. The question is actually, will you see gains between 2000 and 7000 rpm.

I suspect that the stock exhaust on ep3guy's car may be problematic. I really don't know though. I'm sure he'll be back in for testing when he gets a new one.

That said, keep your eyes and ears open and see what results other people with similar mods as you get with the flash. I think that most will see some nice gains across the board. BTW folks, the dyno graph for Rick's car did not even have an intake, just Hondata and 91 octane. That's why you have to take An's results with a grain of salt, he wasn't producing as much power and torque as expected before the flash.

Best of luck.

SC

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
That is a relatively good rep. of the lay of the land gpt. Just as I was saying before, I am making more hp and tq than a hondata tuned RSX type-s upto 6500 rpm. This is without the hondata flash. Shame, but I find it very hard to justify spending $600 on a higher rev. limit and nothing more. I just spoke with my hondata dealer and hopefully he will have all the necessary tools to make that little rev. limit adjustment and tuning for much less in the future. Unfortunately Hondata's software (inclusion of serial #'s in their flashes) makes that difficult for dealers at this point. Patience did not pay off as I hoped it would in this instance.

gpt

01-17-2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by ChurchAutoTest
When it had the AEM mounted it picked up another 5 hp.

Are the results of this dyno published anywhere. I currently have an AEM CAI so this would be my configuration if I got the Hondata flash, so I am very interested.

It seems to me that from my position (currently having an AEM CAI) getting a header would give me similar gains to getting the flash, at least on the dyno and would cost a lot less - but not increase my rev limit, so the dyno would really help me understand exactly what the differences in power are.

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 05:12 PM

S800, the data I have on my dyno says that the 87 to 91 change was worth 2 hp in fully tuned mode.

Basically, if this is your first mod, I'd expect 10 hp, if you've got other mods, about 5 hp.

SC

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by ChurchAutoTest
myeverlovinsir,

I think you might not be looking at the whole picture here. Hondata has tested the flash on two cars. The totally stock car picked up 10 hp and pretty convincing gains. When it had the AEM mounted it picked up another 5 hp. If you reversed the order of modifications, the AEM would probably make more and the Hondata less - that's how it usually works, first mod makes the most power.

The car with intake and header picked up almost nothing below 6k except in a couple of places. In fact, even before the flash it was making less torque down low than the totally stock car, and far less than the stock car with flash.

What does this all mean? The answer is, no quite knows for sure. From a sales perspective, Hondata would have probably been better served to just post the stock car, stock car w/flash and stock car w/flash and AEM. But Doug is an honest guy who is interested in informing people - more info is better as far as he is concerned.

For your car, will you see gains? That is an unknown. Well, not quite, you will see gains on the top end, and the extra 800 rpm of rev range will help your acceleration a lot. You'll also see gains below 2000. The question is actually, will you see gains between 2000 and 7000 rpm.

I suspect that the stock exhaust on ep3guy's car may be problematic. I really don't know though. I'm sure he'll be back in for testing when he gets a new one.

That said, keep your eyes and ears open and see what results other people with similar mods as you get with the flash. I think that most will see some nice gains across the board. BTW folks, the dyno graph for Rick's car did not even have an intake, just Hondata and 91 octane. That's why you have to take An's results with a grain of salt, he wasn't producing as much power and torque as expected before the flash.

Best of luck.

SC

I am not disputing the gains from stock at all, I think others are not so quick to judge because they have not yet made any std. bolt on mods yet, and the chip would offer them the quick fix to get reasonable gains for a reasonable cost. Cudos for that. Where things get grey for me, and believe me, I was the first to toot how much I wanted hondata to put the crown on my car, is that the advantages are waning when other standard mods are included in the mix. Things don't always work out as expected. You guys have seen that there is a limit to tuning even with moderate mods. An's car might mean there is another 2-3 hp being drained along his exhaust, if so, I still am willing to do this. But my wisdom kicks in and from where I stand it's just not worth it yet. My mods are a little more specialized than what you guys have done. I know there was talk of including the TB mods in your test runs, and would hope that also lends itself to further gains. I think for the average consumer you guys have hit a nice mark. Hard to refute 10 or so hp for just $600 from stock.

The big picture is that my car is somewhat uniquely setup and should be tested and tuned apart from what hondata is currently offering, the generic chip won't cut the mustard for me, other than a higher rev. limit. I hope to include hondata tuning in my future mods, such as the head swap, but by then the rev. limit will no longer be an issue. Other internals such as connecting rods and pistons are going to take precidence.

I think for now I will be happy to be ahead of the game thus far and wait until tuning is entirely necessary.

btw: I did not spend near $600 US to get there, excluding the header and CAI of course.

myeverlovinsir...:D

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 05:39 PM

gpt, I don't believe they are published. Doug should have all that data, and if not, he can always come get it from my PC - but I can't publish as it doesn't belong to me :-) However, on every RSX I've tested, be it through Hondata or my independent customers, the first mod always gains the most - or, shall I say, gains disproportionately more, than it would if it came later. On a totally stock RSX-S, the Hondata gained about 20 hp. On a modded car, that gain was only 12 hp. Law of diminishing returns, which is particularly relevant when we're leaving the internals of the engine (head, cam, compression) unchanged. They are the true airflow and power arbiters, all the bolt on parts and tuning are just an attempt to maximize their potential. Only when you change one of these things can you truly "reset" the performance gain cycle.

That said, I really can't predict the effect of the header. Since we didn't dyno An's car before and after the header, I'm just guessing. But I suspect the header may actually compromise bottom end a little in return for allowing the engine to sustain power better on the top end - based upon seeing An's car _after_ the header vs. Rick's car bone stock. This appears to be similar to what happens with base RSX's. But without direct before and after with wideband O2 sensor logging and OBDII monitoring, its hard to be sure - so take this guess with a grain of salt.

SC

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 05:42 PM

One other thing to consider. I am a dyno owner, and as such, sometimes I get caught up in the hp chase on the dyno screen. But we all must remember, we don't race dyno sheets. I have no doubt in my mind that a car with the Hondata rev limit and top end, even if it is making 5 hp less at peak than another car with stock rev limit, will pull on that other car in virtually any acceleration test requiring more than one gear.

Whether or not that is worth the money required is, of course, a personal value decision.

SC

JSIR

01-17-2003, 05:42 PM

Shawn, what do you think of the 7700 rpm limiter, that is much higher than I expected, I was thinking maybe 7400 max. Do you think the Civic Si valvetrain is up to the task with single valvesprings, how about the bottom end ?. Sounds great to me, I just want the engine to hold up for the long term though. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

thanks

Joey

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 05:44 PM

Shawn, what header specifically is An running? I know from experience that the DC header is an outperformer in the low end torque area compared to HP. Let us know. tks:)

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 05:44 PM

Joey,

Don't know. It seems to handle it and the curve is perfect for that sort of limiter (you know, having some overrev past the power peak). I seem to recall hearing that Hondata and JR have taken their supercharged Si test mule to over 8k on stock internals, but you'll have to ask them to be sure.

Considering that you could take an old B18A/B to 7500+ all day long on stock internals, and it had a longer stroke and much older tech, I don't think there will be a problem.

SC

JSIR

01-17-2003, 05:49 PM

thanks Shawn, good point. Yeah I had one of those old b18b's with Dinan chip before, it went to 7500, never thought about that comparison. I just picked up a shop manual today, I noticed the bottom end girdle on these k20's is pretty impressive, lots of support. I guess an 86mm stroke isn't all that big. wonder if the balance shafts help things any on our engine to keep things smoother at upper rpms. maybe.

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 05:58 PM

I believe An is running the DC header. I found it rather strange that even with intake and header he was making less torque down low than Rick's totally stock car. When we added an intake to Rick's car, it picked up low end torque. Same thing when we added the ECU, so I figured it might be An's header, or maybe not having an exhaust system.

Just for reference, everyone should be sure to read the dyno procedures section on the Hondata site. Doug put together a lot of that from the procedures that I use. You have to make sure you monitor and control the critical variables to ensure consistency. All of the runs on An's and Rick's cars were done with coolant temps in the 185 +/-3 deg range to ensure consistency.

SC

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 06:00 PM

Yeah, its no K20A or K20A2 Joey, but considering those motors can rev to 8800 rpm on stock internals with the same stroke, I don't think 7700 is going to hurt the bottom end of the K20A3. But again, I don't _know_ that.

SC

bioevolve

01-17-2003, 06:07 PM

I wonder if I would get any gains with my setup with or without N2O ?

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by ChurchAutoTest
I believe An is running the DC header. I found it rather strange that even with intake and header he was making less torque down low than Rick's totally stock car. When we added an intake to Rick's car, it picked up low end torque. Same thing when we added the ECU, so I figured it might be An's header, or maybe not having an exhaust system.

Just for reference, everyone should be sure to read the dyno procedures section on the Hondata site. Doug put together a lot of that from the procedures that I use. You have to make sure you monitor and control the critical variables to ensure consistency. All of the runs on An's and Rick's cars were done with coolant temps in the 185 +/-3 deg range to ensure consistency.

SC

Good to know, I agree. If An adds a nice midpipe to the setup he may very well be ahead and the tune could show more positive results. We have found that the combination of I/H/E are critical to realizing the full gains on these engines. tks

civic hatch boi

01-17-2003, 06:17 PM

if i only have a aem cai.. is the ecu not worth getting? i was stocked that we were gonna get 10-12hp.. but since i already have a cai.. i don't know if $600 is worth just a higher redline.

IceD out N CALI

01-17-2003, 06:23 PM

i think the bottom end of the a3 can probably witstand the extra rpms, i'm more concerned with the valvetrain being able to handle it

gpt

01-17-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by civic hatch boi
if i only have a aem cai.. is the ecu not worth getting? i was stocked that we were gonna get 10-12hp.. but since i already have a cai.. i don't know if $600 is worth just a higher redline.

The chart you are comparing to is with CAI and header. I also only have a CAI but there are no charts showing the flash and CAI only (which is strange because on Hondata's site it says the flash is designed for this) Lets hope we see the flash and CAI dyno soon!

I think it is worth it because of the more broad increase in torque it offers over a header upgrade (and the higher rev limit!)

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by gpt

The chart you are comparing to is with CAI and header. I also only have a CAI but there are no charts showing the flash and CAI only (which is strange because on Hondata's site it says the flash is designed for this) Lets hope we see the flash and CAI dyno soon!

I think it is worth it because of the more broad increase in torque it offers over a header upgrade (and the higher rev limit!)

Guys, expect similar gains in the 10hp range and close to the header included. The stock header and midpipe are gonna show reasonable results with just the AEM CAI, no question.

SouthHonda

01-17-2003, 07:02 PM

My question is aimed more toward Hondata than anyone else. I looked at the website and didnt see an answer to this.
In my experience selling aftermarket parts (approx 7 years now) I have seen, sold, used a few different brand names and wanted to know what kind of follow up service can buyers expect??

Example: About two years ago the Venom400 hit the market and was touted as the next big thing to get. I sold a ton of them and saw over half the customers unhappy and looking at me for an answer as to why they saw little or no results with the product. Python/Venom realized that on a stock vehicle these things did okay, usually 5 or 6 horsepower. But when installed on a modified vehicle (includes anything I/H/E and beyond) they were not producing any kind of gains whatsoever. Venom/Python started taking the v400's back and changed them to work on cars with more than the normal I/H/E. Actually seeing a decent power gain on some of the cars. Other cars still saw nothing. So the customers basically threw away $300 on them. It got to a point where I personally quit selling them and started reccommending optional products in the same price range.

My question to you is this. Is your product gauranteed to make horsepower on not only stock vehicles but modified vehicles (beyond I/H/E)?? If it is and I dont see gains to satisfy myself for a $600 investment, will you guys offer an upgrade or custom version for each individual car?? There are companies out there that offer one time reprograms of stock ECU's (Jet, HyperTech,Superchips, etc) for the state of tune you vehicle is currently in. Is this what we are buying?? Or is is the upgrade able to be modified by the installer later to customize it toward an individual car??

These questions are meant in no way to badmouth or downgrade your product in any way. I myself need to know this before I invest a decent size chunk of cash into it.

Thank you for your time
Scott Hayworth

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by SouthHonda
My question is aimed more toward Hondata than anyone else. I looked at the website and didnt see an answer to this.
In my experience selling aftermarket parts (approx 7 years now) I have seen, sold, used a few different brand names and wanted to know what kind of follow up service can buyers expect??

Example: About two years ago the Venom400 hit the market and was touted as the next big thing to get. I sold a ton of them and saw over half the customers unhappy and looking at me for an answer as to why they saw little or no results with the product. Python/Venom realized that on a stock vehicle these things did okay, usually 5 or 6 horsepower. But when installed on a modified vehicle (includes anything I/H/E and beyond) they were not producing any kind of gains whatsoever. Venom/Python started taking the v400's back and changed them to work on cars with more than the normal I/H/E. Actually seeing a decent power gain on some of the cars. Other cars still saw nothing. So the customers basically threw away $300 on them. It got to a point where I personally quit selling them and started reccommending optional products in the same price range.

My question to you is this. Is your product gauranteed to make horsepower on not only stock vehicles but modified vehicles (beyond I/H/E)?? If it is and I dont see gains to satisfy myself for a $600 investment, will you guys offer an upgrade or custom version for each individual car?? There are companies out there that offer one time reprograms of stock ECU's (Jet, HyperTech,Superchips, etc) for the state of tune you vehicle is currently in. Is this what we are buying?? Or is is the upgrade able to be modified by the installer later to customize it toward an individual car??

These questions are meant in no way to badmouth or downgrade your product in any way. I myself need to know this before I invest a decent size chunk of cash into it.

Thank you for your time
Scott Hayworth

Great questions, I am not only wondering the same, but am convinced that the same will happen here. Hondata please respond. And thanks for your input.:angel:

CleanBlackSi02

01-17-2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Az02Si
I just got my ecu back from Hondata TODAY.OMG this is how the car SHOULD HAVE FELT from the factory.I am COMPLETLY STOCK motorwise,and just added the flashed ecu....The car has a damn top end now!And im shifting to 4th at almost 90mph instead of that weak 82-83 crap.Thats what i really missed about my B16...The topend.Sorry but STOCK the k20a3 topend sucks,but trust me,this ecu REALLY woke the car up.It feels like a nice,SMOOTH shift in the powerband,with some nice extra midrange power thrown in for good measure.Something about the sound of out motor approaching 8K that makes me warm and fuzzy inside ;)
My main question is...can we finish the quarter mile in third gear?!

02SilverSiHB

01-17-2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by CleanBlackSi02

My main question is...can we finish the quarter mile in third gear?! since it maxxes out at about 90mph in third, I'd say yes. My trap speeds have never gone over 87. I can't wait to see someone go to the track...like AZ02Si

IceD out N CALI

01-17-2003, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
since it maxxes out at about 90mph in third, I'd say yes. My trap speeds have never gone over 87. I can't wait to see someone go to the track...like AZ02Si

me too:)

CleanBlackSi02

01-17-2003, 08:47 PM

If that's the case we'll be seeing easy low 15's stock w/ Hondata.

SiRman

01-17-2003, 09:09 PM

We tested An's car on the same road on a 75 deg day, 2 runs each direction with each ECU program back to back. Baselines were 8.0 seconds, thanks in part to his heavy camber (his car is lowered a lot) and worn tires (insides were worn bald). It was very difficult to get out of the hole without significant spin.

Launching the car was much more difficult than the stock car I drove last year. The extra camber really hurts the contact patch for straight ahead driving, not to mention the worn out tires. If you were to correct An's baseline times for temps, they would have approximately matched or slightly edged our stock car times. With a stock alignment setup, his car would have been much quicker in both tests as launching the stock car was simply a matter of dropping the clutch at low rpms (~2k) and flooring it - piece of cake. That approach in An's car resulted in massive wheelspin.

I'm no dyno expert, but I suspect that An's low dyno results are
at least in part due to his tire condition/camber.

It would be interesting to see his dyno results with good tires and
correct camber setup.

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by SiRman

I'm no dyno expert, but I suspect that An's low dyno results are
at least in part due to his tire condition/camber.

It would be interesting to see his dyno results with good tires and
correct camber setup.

Your right, your not a dyno expert, he would never spin the tires on the dyno, at least not this power range. The results are not dependant on bald tires/camber one way or the other.

SiRman

01-17-2003, 09:20 PM

There may not be noticeable slipping, but even a little could effect the results.

I know this to be true with motorcycles anyways.

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by SiRman
There may not be noticeable slipping, but even a little could effect the results.

I know this to be true with motorcycles anyways.

Sure, there could be some slipage in a motorcycles dyno, mostly due to low mass and wheel hop. Given. But a cars wheels slipping on the dynojet, inertial meter, it can happen...but that's just grasping at straws. I don't know if Shawn uses a tortional waterbreak dyno or inertial setup. He should respond I guess.:angel:

ChurchAutoTest

01-17-2003, 09:28 PM

Fortunately, wheelspin and camber are not an issue. At Church Auto Test we use a Dynapack dyno, which is a hub model. This means we remove the wheels and bolt the dyno directly to the hubs. This eliminates all the nasty variables like strap down tension, tire pressure, alignment, etc. It allows us to truly see what the engine is doing instead of worrying about the other issues. For tuning purposes, it is, IMO, the best system on the market.

Generally, this dyno reads 5-10 hp higher than a traditional roller dyno like the Dynojet thanks to eliminating the tire issues. However, you cannot directly compare results between the two types of dynos. In fact, you should never compare results between two different types of dynos. Any dyno can be used to compare before and after results on a car, just make sure that you follow proper procedure and control the test variables - which depend on the sort of dyno you're using. A chassis dyno is not a good tool for measuring absolute power, but for measuring power differentials.

That's why I suggested you guys read the dyno section at the Hondata site. :-)

SC

SiRman

01-17-2003, 09:30 PM

Sorry,literally just read and was about to post that info off Church's site. :o

SiRman

01-17-2003, 09:34 PM

Sure, there could be some slipage in a motorcycles dyno, mostly due to low mass and wheel hop. Given. But a cars wheels slipping on the dynojet, inertial meter, it can happen...but that's just grasping at straws. I don't know if Shawn uses a tortional waterbreak dyno or inertial setup. He should respond I guess.

Sorry just an idea I had, should have checked the info before posting. I still think this could be an issue on a trad. dyno. though.

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by ChurchAutoTest
Fortunately, wheelspin and camber are not an issue. At Church Auto Test we use a Dynapack dyno, which is a hub model. This means we remove the wheels and bolt the dyno directly to the hubs. This eliminates all the nasty variables like strap down tension, tire pressure, alignment, etc. It allows us to truly see what the engine is doing instead of worrying about the other issues. For tuning purposes, it is, IMO, the best system on the market.

Generally, this dyno reads 5-10 hp higher than a traditional roller dyno like the Dynojet thanks to eliminating the tire issues. However, you cannot directly compare results between the two types of dynos. In fact, you should never compare results between two different types of dynos. Any dyno can be used to compare before and after results on a car, just make sure that you follow proper procedure and control the test variables - which depend on the sort of dyno you're using. A chassis dyno is not a good tool for measuring absolute power, but for measuring power differentials.

That's why I suggested you guys read the dyno section at the Hondata site. :-)

SC

Wholly, don't know if this matters at this point but I did all my dyno runs on an inertial dynojet setup and the same place. You claim 5-10 whp more in comparison. I should be well ahead of the curve then. ha.:eek: You made my day Shawn.

ep3guy

01-17-2003, 10:09 PM

Since everyone is wondering what I'm currently running right now. I have a AEM CAI, 4-1 DC ceramic header, and the flash upgrade. I believe Shawn Church is correct. The reason for the torque loss is due to not having an exhuast. The piping is just too restrictive in my opinion, but I may be wrong. We'll find out soon once I get the Borla exhaust, if in the end, I do. I, just like a lot of other people, want to find out how the Borla exhaust performs.

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by ep3guy
Since everyone is wondering what I'm currently running right now. I have a AEM CAI, 4-1 DC ceramic header, and the flash upgrade. I believe Shawn Church is correct. The reason for the torque loss is due to not having an exhuast. The piping is just too restrictive in my opinion, but I may be wrong. We'll find out soon once I get the Borla exhaust, if in the end, I do. I, just like a lot of other people, want to find out how the Borla exhaust performs.

Hold the press, unless you have removed the baffle plate from the DC header it's a 4-2-1. If what you say is correct and your running a 4-1 header then damn, you just lost all the torque benifits you would ever expect from the DC. Please let us know.

I thought rick77f was going to contribue a Borla exhaust on his ride? Would like to know how that pans out as well. tks.:cool:

!@#$%

01-17-2003, 10:30 PM

the hp header is straight 4-1 design and they seem to be the ones getting 150+ hp with I/H/E whereas the DC and I/E usually nets appox 146-149. (at least from what ive seen) The torque curve however, im not really sure if its really THAT different.

Even with I/H/E the downpipe going to the cat is still VERY restrictive. Maybe this is the one piece that maintains that little bit of torque.

I wonder what CAI/Spoon complete header (replacement pipe w/cat), and catback or midpipe would net.....should have much smoother airflow than having gulps of air through intake, then header....then straw pipe to cat....then back to big exit through the exhaust.

I wonder what torque curve the spoon header retains.... maybe it actually IS worth the money. who knows.

Then compare cai/spoon header/exhaust(midpipe) setup with the hondata. if i had $$$$ id do it just for testing purposes.

myeverlovinsir

01-17-2003, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by !@#$%
the hp header is straight 4-1 design and they seem to be the ones getting 150+ hp with I/H/E whereas the DC and I/E usually nets appox 146-149. (at least from what ive seen) The torque curve however, im not really sure if its really THAT different.

Your partially correct, from what you have seen, I ran with I/H/E and netted ~149 hp at the limiter, nothing to write home about.
The HP does perform better in comparison in the top end with I/DC H/E, but once the TB is done the top end is moot. and the torque is more proficient in the DC overall. No one here yet has shown the results of removing the baffle plate from the DC, but I would expect the same as a HP header considering the primaries (diameter) are the same aside from longer pipes in cylinders 2 & 3 its a tough call. 134 ft/lbs in the 4800rpm range is just wonderfull. It's a great landing point between shifts. Torque speaks volumes compared to some extraneous rev limiter hp. ;)

Hondata

01-18-2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by SouthHonda
What kind of follow up service can buyers expect??

My question to you is this. Is your product gauranteed to make horsepower on not only stock vehicles but modified vehicles (beyond I/H/E)?? If it is and I dont see gains to satisfy myself for a $600 investment, will you guys offer an upgrade or custom version for each individual car?? There are companies out there that offer one time reprograms of stock ECU's (Jet, HyperTech,Superchips, etc) for the state of tune you vehicle is currently in. Is this what we are buying?? Or is is the upgrade able to be modified by the installer later to customize it toward an individual car??

These questions are meant in no way to badmouth or downgrade your product in any way. I myself need to know this before I invest a decent size chunk of cash into it.

Scott, your questions are very relevant.

Our comittment to customer service is 100%. We can not afford to make products that do not perform as advertised. In fact our customers do our advertising. Last year we spent about $3000 on advertising. That would buy you about a 1/3 color page in Sport Compact Car.

We have never had a customer ask for their money because they were unhappy with any of our products. Never. We offer a 30 day money back guarantee. If you are not satisfied, return it to us and we will return the ECU to stock.

For dealers like yourself, we will be putting in a program where you can buy a reflashed ECU ECU, ignition key and immobiliser. That way you can test the ECU in a customer's car before they buy. It will take you less than 5 minutes to fit.

We can only test our programs with upgrades available such as intake headers and exhaust. As other bolt ons become available (such as forced induction), we will test them and offer upgrades where appropriate.

At some distant time in the future, we hope to offer dealers and customers the means to reprogram their own computers, based off the tunes we have already done. Less than 5 percent of customers would want to attempt this on their own car. Less than 1 percent should be allowed to.

So far we have only dyno tested two Civics. More will give us more information. Here is what I propose. I will host a dyno day in conjunction with Shawn Church automotive testing. Dyno pulls will be $45 each for three pulls including airfuel ratio. One of those dyno pulls will include swapping the stock ECU with the Hondata ECU. We all get to learn something.

Our policy has always been one of education. A smarter customer makes better choices, even if it is not our product. You will see this extending to the Civic Si over the next few months as we test more modifications. As we learn, we will post.

By way of comparison, the base manual RSX responds well to intake headers exhaust and flash programming. I expect that a similarly equipped Civic should as well. We need to do more testing to find out why An's Civic did not respond well on the dyno as Rick's.

As I think Shawn mentioned, we do not drive dynos. An's comments were that the dyno did not do justice to the improvments he felt on the road.

I will be posting more information on comparitive dyno runs over the course of the weekend. For example the effect of a CAI, headers, comparisons with a Base RSX, Type S etc.

SiRman

01-18-2003, 01:40 AM

Thanks Hondata for the honest hands on interactive approach in the developement of your products. It benefits us the customers, as well yourself in referals.

ep3guy

01-18-2003, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir

Hold the press, unless you have removed the baffle plate from the DC header it's a 4-2-1. If what you say is correct and your running a 4-1 header then damn, you just lost all the torque benifits you would ever expect from the DC. Please let us know.

I thought rick77f was going to contribue a Borla exhaust on his ride? Would like to know how that pans out as well. tks.:cool:

Sorry, I meant 4-2-1. I'm supposed to be getting an exhaust from Borla too, but not so sure of it anymore.

chunky

01-18-2003, 04:09 AM

some important questions that remain to be asked:

1) what was the mileage on each of the cars during the dyno testing?

2) were the air filters checked to see if they were dirty and in need of replacement?

3) what type of maintenance schedule was each car on? was one getting it's oil changed at every 3000 miles v.s. the other getting it's oil changed at 5000 miles? In my experience, dirty oil is a real bummer on the EP. After I change the oil it's like whoa.

Mostly I'm curious about the mileage on each car. b/c if they're not similar, then that could account for part of the discrepancy as a motor with more mileage could be better broken in

I'm kind of dissapionted in the test vehicles you utilized. When run on a dynapack my completely stock car put down 147 to the wheels though not nearly as much torque. Were the dyno pulls done in 4th gear? What gearing specs did you input into the dynapack program?

here's a shot of my stock dyno.

*edit* wierd, I couldn't attach the image. . .

02blksi

01-18-2003, 08:52 AM

well, the long awaited release date is here.... What do I think? Well horspower numbers vary car to car.. Im more intrested in the Hondata system for the real benifits IMO .

--Better 0-60 acclereation
-- higer rev limit
-- and a wonderful basis for forced induction tunning .. when available.

how many stand alone fully programable honda systems will net you 600 and give you the benifts listed above, simply plug and play to boot.??? NOT MANY if any.

OEM ECU OEM SENSORS/WIRING, and plug an play --600 bucks to enjoy your car a bit more, and since many people are soooo concerned with their 1/4 mile times, then the higher rev limit alone is worth it finishing the 1/4 in third instead of fourth (im guessing, havent run my car at the track).

Hondata/ DOUG -- with this flash are you offering the other little benifits like -- rev limit (dual stage) , and shift light??? if requested?

Also i live in CT, and to date no shops in my area have are hondata dealers :( any chance some info can be forwarded to me so that i can find someone to do this flash for me? -- Also, will instructions be provided on which jumper cable to cut so that the dealership cannot erase or refalsh my hondata flash..

Lastly -- any chance of an ephatch.com groupbuy?? i know you wont really go down much in price (thats what ive heard) but how about some nifty extras thrown into the ephatch.com flashes -- since our members were used to get this flash .. like shift light, or work something out with overnight shipping etc. -- just some thoughts. Once again thankyou for making a A3 SI flash.. ---Joe :)

S800Racer

01-18-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by SiRman
Thanks Hondata for the honest hands on interactive approach in the developement of your products. It benefits us the customers, as well yourself in referals.

Amen! Hondata's willingness to show us the good, the bad and the ugly in their testing results gives them a ton of credibility in my book.

That said, I'm not sure I'll be getting the K20A3 flash. I would love to have the extra revs and I don't doubt that the power gains will be good, but I really want to do a K20A2 swap and I might just save my pennies for that. I also have to consider that running my A3 to 7700 rpm might affect it's resale value when I do my swap.

Hondata

01-18-2003, 10:15 AM

If you are worried about the resale value, then do not take it to 7700 rpm. As I think someone has already pointed out, the previous B18b non vtec engines had a redline of 7500 - and arguably these are better built engines with roller rockers and balance shafts.

When you get your K20A2 engine, simply have your ECU reflashed with the Hondata performance program. The upgrade cost is just $200.

nikkotyper

01-18-2003, 10:37 AM

Good job, Hondata. Keep the reasearch/testing going as you are definatelly on to something. . .

Thanks.

ChurchAutoTest

01-18-2003, 11:29 AM

You'll have to ask Hondata about mileage, but I do know that outside of changing the intake on Rick's car, no other changes were made to the cars short of the flash change. So, if they had old oil, they had it through all the runs. I suspect that Rick's airfilter was clean though, that guy is meticulous :-)

All runs were made in 4th gear using Honda specified gear ratio data, backed up by the ratio setup test on the dyno. Run time was 10 seconds in each case starting at 1500 rpm.

147 hp on a Dynapack for a stock Si is exceptionally high. We were actually surprised that the stock car put down 140 whp as Base RSX's usually dyno lower. By comparison, here are what some other stock cars (using the more powerful examples) have put down on several occasions:

Stock RSX-S - 170 whp
Stock 00-01 S2000 - 212 whp
Stock 02 S2000 - 217 whp (yes, they consistently make more!)
Stock base RSX - 130 whp
Stock Nissan 350Z - 254 whp

As you can see, most cars tend to average about 30 hp less than their rated crank specifications (the 02 S2000's are believed to have an upgraded ECU) and when compared to each other seem to be pretty consistent.

All tests are done with an OBDII scantool hooked up and coolant temps stabilized. We always throw out the first run of the day which is usually the highest (same goes for runs after extended cool downs). If you do not monitor these things, power numbers can vary wildly.

SC

Originally posted by chunky

I'm kind of dissapionted in the test vehicles you utilized. When run on a dynapack my completely stock car put down 147 to the wheels though not nearly as much torque. Were the dyno pulls done in 4th gear? What gearing specs did you input into the dynapack program?
.

Jpax

01-18-2003, 11:39 AM

147HP with a flash.................thats it........:(

quicksi

01-18-2003, 11:54 AM

HONDATA I WAS WONDERING IF YOU GUYS WILL BE MAKING A FLASH THAT WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH NITROUS.

civic hatch boi

01-18-2003, 12:44 PM

Hondata, i live near torrance. do i really have to mail my stuff in? can't i just bring it in? i don't trust mail.

redronin22

01-18-2003, 02:46 PM

to hondata. id love to get the reflash done but i dont have the ability to rent a car and or car pool to / from work. is there a way i can pay for it at a Hondata dealer and take the ecu and stuff to you directly? rick said it would only take a few minutes to reflash and send it out. a day downtime would be bad but 3 days is too much. wondering if u can help me out. would it be too much trouble for you guys? i really want the reflash since i drove ricks car but i just dont see how i can have the time to drop my car off.

Hondata

01-18-2003, 03:21 PM

Contact the one of Hondata dealers on our list close to Torrance and organise it with them.

They can usually get it done the same day.

MrFoxMan

01-19-2003, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by redronin22
to hondata. id love to get the reflash done but i dont have the ability to rent a car and or car pool to / from work. is there a way i can pay for it at a Hondata dealer and take the ecu and stuff to you directly? rick said it would only take a few minutes to reflash and send it out. a day downtime would be bad but 3 days is too much. wondering if u can help me out. would it be too much trouble for you guys? i really want the reflash since i drove ricks car but i just dont see how i can have the time to drop my car off.

I have a RSX-S. My plain is to take 3 days off for vacation (Thursday- Friday). Mail the ecu off on Thursday & get it back on Friday by 10:00. Then play all weekend.