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BlazeX12
07-23-2002, 08:23 PM
Can someone explain to me double clutching?? i have heard this term used before, and appaertly the oppiste is to granny shift? i think i granny shift, but i dont even know the difference. help plesae....

SpeedRacer
07-23-2002, 08:30 PM
what is granny shift?

02TafWhtSi
07-23-2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by SpeedRacer
what is granny shift?

I think he's getting that phrase from "the Fast and the Furious" - it probably means shifting really slow and not working the clutch enough.

SpeedRacer
07-23-2002, 08:34 PM
Everything you ever wanted to know about Double-clutching. (and why you don't have to know it) By Phil Ethier (ethier@freenet.msp.mn.us)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The basis of misunderstanding about double-clutching, rev-matching and heel-and-toe is a lack of understanding of the basic way the engine/clutch/transmission combination works. So take a deep breath and follow along.
What do synchros do? They are used to make the the layshaft match the gear that you are going to. To do the job in a car without synchromesh, you have to make the layshaft go the speed of the new gear yourself.

(Note, I have always just called the gears on the layshaft "the layshaft" so it is easier to visualize. This is a schematic description, not an analysis of which gear slides where on which shaft, or how synchros work, or what oil to use for them. So if you don't agree with the schematic concept I outline here, tell me where I went wrong, and we will look at it. Technical statements about gear movements on shafts or the like will be sent to the bit bucket. I know that modern transmissions are constant-mesh but it really does not change the concept.)

You have three rotating parts in series (1,2,3) with two ways to connect and disconnect them from each other (A B):

1 A 2 B 3

engine -> clutch -> layshaft -> gear selector -> various transmission gears

1) The engine speed is controlled by the throttle alone when the clutch is disengaged ("in"). It is equal to the layshaft speed when the clutch is engaged.

A) The clutch disconnects the engine from the layshaft when you step on the pedal.

2) The layshaft speed is equal to the engine speed when the clutch is engaged. The layshaft speed is related to the road speed when a gear is selected. Therefore, when the clutch is engaged AND a gear is selected, the engine speed is related rigidly to the road speed. (Nobody spins the wheels in this schematic outline!) When the clutch is disengaged AND the selector is in Neutral, the layshaft coasts down freely, regardless of either engine or road speed.

B) The gear selector disconnects the layshaft from the transmission gears when you select "Neutral", and connects the layshaft to a specific transmission gear when you select one.

3) The various transmission gears are being pushed around by the road speeding under your car via the differential and driveshafts. All of them All of them are spinning at different speeds in rigidly defined relationship to each other. If your tires are not slipping, the speed of the system is rigidly proportional to your road speed.

If you have working synchromesh: You are loafing along in Third gear and want to change to Second gear. When you put in the clutch and change the gear selector from Third to Neutral, the layshaft is going a particular speed that matched Third gear at the present road speed. If you do not change your road speed (your brakes are broke, say), the layshaft is going too slowly to match Second gear. As you approach the Second gear selection, the synchros will speed the layshaft up to the same speed as Second gear is now rotating. How do they do that? Ask a mechanic. They just DO it. I have a rough intuitive grasp of how they work, but it does not matter here.

If you have no synchromesh (Crash Box City): You are loafing along in Third gear and want to change to Second gear. When you put in the clutch and change the gear selector from Third to Neutral, the layshaft is going a particular speed that matched Third gear at the present road speed. If you do not change your road speed (your brakes are broke, say), the layshaft is going too slowly to match Second gear. (Sound familiar so far?) As you approach the Second gear selection, the gears go GRAUNCH.

What should you have done? This:


Push in clutch Layshaft equals Third gear speed

Select Neutral Layshaft coasts

Let out clutch Layshaft equals engine speed

Blip throttle Engine and layshaft speed up to Second gear speed and a
little

Push in clutch Layshaft coasts

Select Second No GRAUNCH if you have the speeds right. Ideally,
layshaft has coasted down to exactly Second gear speed

Let out clutch System is all locked up in Second.

This is double-clutching. It INCORPORATES rev-matching, or there is no point in doing it. Therefore, in my opinion, there is no reason to have to say "rev-matching" to describe this process. The rev-matching is the tricky part. How high do you rev it? Experience is the only teacher.

Does double-clutching do any good if you have a synchromesh box? Yes, it makes the synchros work less hard than they were designed to, so they will last longer. The synchros will make up for any errors.

Can you rev-match the layshaft without double-clutching? Yes. Don't use the clutch at all:


Ease the throttle Takes the load out of the system

Select Neutral Layshaft equals engine speed

Blip throttle Engine and layshaft speed up to Second gear speed

Select Second No GRAUNCH if you have the speeds right

This works exactly the same in a synchromesh box as a crash box. Since the layshaft is always connected to the engine, synchros will NOT help you. In fact, I think errors in this method can wreak your synchros. Normally, synchros only have to deal with the rotating mass of the layshaft. Now you are asking them to deal with your whole engine. They ain't gonna like it. You have to be perfect. This is what Rick Mears and many other disgustingly able drivers do. I couldn't do it on a bet.

Can you rev-match the layshaft to the transmission gears by throttle - blipping with regular single clutching? No. The layshaft is not connected to the engine while the clutch is in. Those that recommend throttle-blipping rev-matching are right that it gives a smooth transition when they let the clutch out, but it does absolutely nothing to match the layshaft and does not save your synchros any work at all. (See the way to get around this in autocrossing below.)

OK, here is the hard part. Racing. You are NEVER loafing along in Third gear. The scenario for double-clutching changes: You are blasting along in Third gear and want to change to Second gear for the exit of the corner you are approaching. When you put in the clutch and change the gear selector from Third to Neutral, the layshaft is going a particular speed that matched Third gear at the present road speed. When you brake hard for the corner, the layshaft is going some speed that may or not be right for the speed Second gear will be turning when you are ready to use it. Classic driving style is to double-clutch into Second while braking. This requires heel-and-toe to blip the throttle to rev-match the layshaft. The only reason that this is the "classic" method is because they used the engine braking in Second to help out their lousy brakes.

So here we come to the in my opinion part, where I tell you why I think all the above work is not necessary. In autocrossing with modern brakes, engine braking is counterproductive to slow down for a corner. It upsets your brake balance and does not really help very much in slowing the car down. So instead of revving the engine way up to make Second while you are still going fast, wait to select Second until you are going the entry speed for the corner. The synchros iron out the small difference between the layshaft and Second gear. So instead of revving the engine way up to make Second while you are still going fast, wait to select Second until you are going the entry speed for the corner. The synchros iron out the small difference between the layshaft and Second gear.


Push in clutch and brake together Layshaft equals Third gear speed,
coasts down a bit
Select Second near end of braking The car has slowed, layshaft
coasts while you are still braking, gears
are slowing, no need to hang about in
Neutral. No GRAUNCH, the speeds are
close and the synchros work.
Off brakes and on throttle Here is where you do the rev matching so
that there is no big jerk when you let
out the clutch
Let out clutch It is still well before the (late) apex.
Add power Well, this what you came here for. Go!
Mind the attitude and unwind the wheel.
Let out clutch It is still well before the (late) apex.
Add power Well, this what you came here for. Go!
Mind the attitude and unwind the wheel.

You will note that the actual downshift is one move, and each foot has only one job to do. I am convinced that this method is the second-fastest way to do this. Rick Mears will be able to do the left-foot-brake, no-clutch method faster, due to the lack of transfer time of the right foot from brake to throttle. But since most of us cannot pull that off at all, I think my method is the fastest for non-gifted mortals. I always say to make the synchros work for a living, but if you don't shift too soon, they don't work very hard.

This works very well with a streetable car having a normal flywheel and synchros in an autocross situation. The reason it will not work as well in road racing is that the braking time is longer. A light flywheel that allows the engine to rev down faster is not going to help either.

For the other bit of confusion:



sorry for such a long post but here you go

BlazeX12
07-23-2002, 08:35 PM
beleive it or not i have never seen that movie, i have only heard it used on other forums. Double clutching and granny shifting used as oppisite's. If what you said about granny shifting is true, as far as not using the cltuch and whatever, then i guess i dont granny shift. but my real question was what is doulbe clutching?

SpeedRacer
07-23-2002, 08:36 PM
i told you what double clutching is read the post before yours man

how could you miss it

beretta627
07-23-2002, 08:41 PM
dont use Fast and the Furious as a reference for proper driving techniques please. :)

CleanBlackSi02
07-23-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by beretta627
dont use Fast and the Furious as a reference for proper driving techniques please. :)

Pretty please....

BlazeX12
07-23-2002, 08:44 PM
ok, ignore the post i wrote above, i guess you posted your answer before i finsihed typing my reply.... and thanx, i think that has to be the most in depth answer to any post i have ever had!!!!

BlazeX12
07-23-2002, 08:46 PM
sorry about the F&F phrases, like i said, i never seen the movie, so i didnt know that is where it came from, i only heard it used on other forums.....

SpeedRacer
07-23-2002, 08:47 PM
no problem

SpeedRacer
07-23-2002, 08:48 PM
so who actually read that long ass post about double clutching?

BlazeX12
07-23-2002, 08:52 PM
yes i did! and now my eyes hurt, and my head is throbbing, maybe its this color scheme??

SpeedRacer
07-23-2002, 08:55 PM
yea probly the color what colors are you using?

DJQuikFingaz
07-23-2002, 08:55 PM
Especially if your reading in the dark. hehe

mixedupneko
07-23-2002, 10:04 PM
i read or somewhat read the long bible on double clutching can someone put it into a short story for me ?

SpeedRacer
07-23-2002, 10:16 PM
yea i dont think it was in english

punkdork
07-23-2002, 11:24 PM
Thanks for the long explanation. Very nice!

Short version

Double-clutching:
1 Push in clutch.
2 Shift to neutral.
3 Release clutch.
4 Push in clutch.
5 Select gear.
6 Release clutch.

CleanBlackSi02
07-24-2002, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by punkdork
Thanks for the long explanation. Very nice!

Short version

Double-clutching:
1 Push in clutch.
2 Shift to neutral.
3 Release clutch.
4 Push in clutch.
5 Select gear.
6 Release clutch.

Doesen't it involve rev matching as well?

ApexinSi
07-24-2002, 08:54 AM
Double-clutching:

clutch in
Shift to neutral.
clutch out

Match RPMS here by tapping the throttle

clutch in
desired gear
clutch out

punkdork
07-24-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by CleanBlackSi02


Doesen't it involve rev matching as well?

Well yeah... unless you wanna grind. :D

NetDragon
07-24-2002, 09:54 AM
Arg! Really though, he is right, we do not need to know any of this. We all have syncros and do not need to worry about it. And personally I liked F&F, it was a fun fantasy movie. It was just a movie. But I know there are some negative things that happened out there in the world of rice because of the movie. Ya?

TezGari
07-24-2002, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by CleanBlackSi02


Pretty please....


PRETTTTYYYY please with 5K cherries on top!. Fast anf the Furious is G*y.........It makes kids think NOS is great and it wont hurt ur engine.

CleanBlackSi02
07-24-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by ApexinSi
Double-clutching:

clutch in
Shift to neutral.
clutch out

Match RPMS here by tapping the throttle

clutch in
desired gear
clutch out

That's what I thought....