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View Full Version : Is there any news about the 2003 Civic Si?



snubnose
07-28-2002, 04:03 PM
Does anyone know what changes, if any, are planned for the 2003 Si?

SBC31
07-28-2002, 04:12 PM
So far, the only one is that the gold color is out, and it will be replaced with some sort of blue. Probably the same blue has the RSX Type S.

The US may also get the red Si (Canada has them for 2002), but that is unconfirmed.

When something comes up, I guarantee you that it will be on here, so keep on checkin'.

MagusDC5
07-28-2002, 04:13 PM
Ive heard the color on the Si will be called "Vivid Blue Pearl".

The S' is "Arctic Blue Pearl"...it will probably be a variation.

chunky
07-28-2002, 06:32 PM
as far as I can tell, don't count on a 2003 si.

snubnose
07-28-2002, 06:35 PM
The current Si may be discontinued? That's kind of a huge revelation.

DJQuikFingaz
07-28-2002, 07:05 PM
as far as I can tell, don't count on a 2003 si.
You obviously can't tell very far.

MagusDC5
07-28-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by DJQuikFingaz

You obviously can't tell very far.

Yea exactly...Si models last the year duration of the Generation.

SpeedRacer
07-28-2002, 07:07 PM
chunky what are you talking about what are your sources

DJQuikFingaz
07-28-2002, 07:14 PM
Si models last the year duration of the Generation.
YUP!

SBC31
07-28-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by chunky
as far as I can tell, don't count on a 2003 si.
If anything we may see a non Si hatch for 2003 and maybe just maybe a Type R (fingers crossed) Sure the Si is not selling at record breaking numbers, but this is why Honda has the Accord and Non hatch Civic's and CRV's. Hey they don't sell NSX's that much. Remember, the 02 Si is a limited production car, and I'm sure we will see it for 2003, but then again what do I know.

DJQuikFingaz
07-28-2002, 07:22 PM
maybe just maybe a Type R (fingers crossed)
*also crossing fingers**and toes**and legs**and arms**hell, i'm crossing my eyes!*

chunky
07-28-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by SBC31

If anything we may see a non Si hatch for 2003 and maybe just maybe a Type R (fingers crossed) Sure the Si is not selling at record breaking numbers, but this is why Honda has the Accord and Non hatch Civic's and CRV's. Hey they don't sell NSX's that much. Remember, the 02 Si is a limited production car, and I'm sure we will see it for 2003, but then again what do I know.

The 2002 si is a veritable flop at the dealerships. Honda may be looking to recoup their image, but most likely, as you so astutely mentioned, they will not try to do it in hatchback form.

I highly doubt that the CTR will come over. Not only would honda have to have the car crash tested etc, but they would also be risking the fact that no one would buy it due to it's styling. I mean, american buyers begged honda for another si hatch. Honda delivered, and no one bought it. Honda has always proven itself to be a very conservative car maker. They are a relatively small company in the automotive world, and they can't go around bringing over any special limited edition model they want w/o incurring huge financial losses.

Honda had already pulled the hatch from the U.S. markets once, and I'm sure they won't hesitate to do it again. once the 30,000 si's that were marked for the u.s. are sold, don't expect to see another hatch from them in awhile.

SiVTEC
07-29-2002, 01:00 AM
Hopefully red will be available:D

Mechanic
07-29-2002, 04:16 AM
[QUOTEs]Originally posted by chunky


"The 2002 si is a veritable flop at the dealerships."

Reply: Not in the Washington DC area they're not. Now, if you mean the dealers haven't been able to surcharge customers, that's correct. Personally, I thought it was great to get 8% off the MSRP.

"I highly doubt that the CTR will come over. Not only would honda have to have the car crash tested etc . . ."

Reply: Nope, Honda wouldn't have to recertify the crashworthiness of the chassis. More specifically, the "hard points" -- A-, B- and C- pillars, windshield location, seats, steering wheel, belts, etc., are all unchanged. Honda would have to certify that the chassis (except for the springs, shocks, wheels) is identical to the current Si, but another certification process would not be required.

Same for the engine: Unless Honda chose a different ECM for the CTR, the R engine has already been certified for sale in the Acura.

"I mean, American buyers begged honda for another si hatch. Honda delivered, and no one bought it."

Reply: I disagree that "no one bought [them]." Honda imported 7,000 (not 30k) '02 Si's. They are not selling at a premium, but they are selling. It's my hunch -- and it's only a hunch, of course -- is that there are a lots of enthusiasts who are sitting on the sidelines believing Honda will import the CTR and an Acura Type R. (Certainly you see that here in the responses from owners who either want an R now, or who hope that Honda will hold off for at least another year before bringing the car in so their Si's would drop significantly in value. I don't think that's an issue because Honda has always waited at least two years before ramping up to another edition of an existing line.)

In summary, I think you're expecting too much from this car. Like the S2000, it was inevitable that this model would only sell to those who wanted what the Si is - something different from the norm.

SBC31
07-29-2002, 05:15 AM
I agree with Mechanic.

Chunky, you are also just using your gut feeling on what they will do for 2003, but again, the 02 Si's are not meant to break record numbers.

I bet Honda still has the Civic Hatch for 2003.

iR-VTEC2
07-29-2002, 05:42 AM
"They are a relatively small company in the automotive world"

Are you kidding?

Honda has four plants in Ohio
alabama
Ontario, Canada
30 in japan
Belguim
Brazil
Indonesia
Italy
Malaysia
New Zealand
Nigeria
Peru
Phillipines
Taiwan
Thailand
Turkey and now the UK + some that i've probably missed

Honda is a MASSIVE manufacturer. Not to mention that they pretty much dominate every motorsports arena that they strive for. Right now..its Indy. It was F1 before.....big time. And if anyone brings up car sales..ill let you in on a lil secret. The Big three....they do a lot of new car registration and sell them as "floor models" or "demos" to the public. This automatically makes them a "sale". Sneaky but VERY effective. They dont do that for all their cars of course....it would be too obvious.

I guess they seem "relatively small" due to the fact that They dont have many models. However, you dont see a ford lawn mower, or a chevy boat engine or a Chrysler street bike. If you do then im missin out on something! Nissan generator anyone?

The new civic Si a flop? Well....you cant even get one where I live. The waiting list has been filled and people are scooping them up. I guess each region has different consumers. Thousands and thousands of enthusiasts here.

I agree that the CTR might not make it here. It seems that honda is hessitant to give us the good stuff. Perhaps they have a chip on their shoulders against the usa. Maybe its cuz japan dropped thousands of bombs on the usa....and we ended with two!!

chunky
07-29-2002, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by iR-VTEC2
"They are a relatively small company in the automotive world"

Are you kidding?

Honda has four plants in Ohio
alabama
Ontario, Canada
30 in japan
Belguim
Brazil
Indonesia
Italy
Malaysia
New Zealand
Nigeria
Peru
Phillipines
Taiwan
Thailand
Turkey and now the UK + some that i've probably missed

Honda is a MASSIVE manufacturer. Not to mention that they pretty much dominate every motorsports arena that they strive for. Right now..its Indy. It was F1 before.....big time. And if anyone brings up car sales..ill let you in on a lil secret. The Big three....they do a lot of new car registration and sell them as "floor models" or "demos" to the public. This automatically makes them a "sale". Sneaky but VERY effective. They dont do that for all their cars of course....it would be too obvious.

I guess they seem "relatively small" due to the fact that They dont have many models. However, you dont see a ford lawn mower, or a chevy boat engine or a Chrysler street bike. If you do then im missin out on something! Nissan generator anyone?

The new civic Si a flop? Well....you cant even get one where I live. The waiting list has been filled and people are scooping them up. I guess each region has different consumers. Thousands and thousands of enthusiasts here.

I agree that the CTR might not make it here. It seems that honda is hessitant to give us the good stuff. Perhaps they have a chip on their shoulders against the usa. Maybe its cuz japan dropped thousands of bombs on the usa....and we ended with two!!

you compare the number of automotive units that honda sells worldwide v.s. a company like GM, toyota, chrylser, hell even Nissan sells more than honda.

Honda is a small fry when it comes to the automotive business. Esp when they're forced to run on some rather thin margins whenever they introduce a new model. For the first 2-3 years, they're recovering their investment in r&d, and after that, they being to profit from the models.

I don't think you guys realize how EXPENSIVE it is to introduce a new model. When you're like GM & chrylser and you have 20+ models you can spread out the cost of a new model on, it's a lot easier, but honda has only a handful of models, so anything new is a HUGE deal for them.

And the CTR will have to be re crash tested. The only time they don't have to re-crash test a car is when they change the non structural & drivetrain components. A new motor will definitely require crash testing.

maybe i'm just a pessimist, but Honda has always been a very conservative company. They will probably bring over a type-r, but it's much more likely to be an rsx-r, b/c then they don't have to deal with the notion of a honda model superseeding an acura model.

MagusDC5
07-29-2002, 09:26 AM
the motor in the CTR is just an LSD equipped K20A2. If anything there going to have to retest is going to be the lower stance that it sits because of its suspension...we all know the Type R's sit lower than the other models.

DJQuikFingaz
07-29-2002, 11:04 AM
maybe i'm just a pessimist
Yea, you are.

ColinCivicSiR
07-29-2002, 11:22 AM
They will not have to re crash test the CTR, the ITR was never crash tested for the same reasons the CTR won't have to be, in fact the ITR had more differences to the GSR than the CTR does to the SI.

I would also like to see those sales numbers you are talking about. Lets talk about profits while we are at it. Can you show me some profit margins on other manufacturers, GM looses huge amounts of money every year as does ford on there car lines, these losses are offset by their truck sales.

IMHO honda will bring the CTR I think as a 2003 model and the RSX-R as a 2004 model. My reasoning is this. the SI was originally released to the press as a 2003 model but it was then changed to a 2002 model, why.........because the CTR will be the new 2003 model. Maybe. Maybe not, but I think so.

Colin

MagusDC5
07-29-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by ColinCivicSiR
IMHO honda will bring the CTR I think as a 2003 model and the RSX-R as a 2004 model. My reasoning is this. the SI was originally released to the press as a 2003 model but it was then changed to a 2002 model, why.........because the CTR will be the new 2003 model. Maybe. Maybe not, but I think so.

...right.

The earliest anyone will see a Type R is 2004. Don't expect it any sooner.

iR-VTEC2
07-29-2002, 06:26 PM
again..the big three (usa) register many of their cars BEFORE they are sold. This is automatically counted as a sale. The actual numbers are much lower.

Granted that honda does not outsell some other companies in units. Honda has less models. What IM saying is that the Honda Corp. IS huge AND much larger than many competitors.

In 2001 honda made 717 million dollars in the first quarter while GM's first quarter earnings were only 225 million. GM lost their ass overseas.

Ford only made 754 million that entire year! Chrysler....is not profiting at all. They say that in 2002 they will break even or make a little profit.
*incorrect: the above was fords 2000 net profit*

Honda keeps adding new plants. THe big three....are fast becoming the small three.

{Please correct me if im wrong with any of this}

SmoothOperator
07-29-2002, 07:24 PM
Wow. This is interesting information. Where do you guys get this stuff? I'm learning something new:p

chunky
07-29-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by ColinCivicSiR
They will not have to re crash test the CTR, the ITR was never crash tested for the same reasons the CTR won't have to be, in fact the ITR had more differences to the GSR than the CTR does to the SI.

I would also like to see those sales numbers you are talking about. Lets talk about profits while we are at it. Can you show me some profit margins on other manufacturers, GM looses huge amounts of money every year as does ford on there car lines, these losses are offset by their truck sales.

that's just it, GM has the truck sales to fall back on, so it's not as huge a deal if they incure huge losses from a new model.

For example, say it costs about 5 billion to develop a new model. Now lets say that the company sells 500,000 cars a year, and makes say, 2000 dollars from each car towards repaying the R&D expenses, that's 5 years that it takes to recoup the cost of development, so after 5 years of production, the company really begins to profit. Now a smaller company has to spend the same 5 billion to develop a new model, but has maybe half the cars sold (honda actually sells less than 1/2 of what gm sells). Lets say that the cars are priced higher, therefore they make 3000 from each model towards repayment, so it takes them about 6 and 2/3 years before they can begin to profit. Guess what, GM has been profiting for 2 years off their model, meaing they're 2 billion up on a smaller company. And not only that, the typical lifespan of a new model is just over 5-7 years. GM at the worst would break even before the market forces them to redesign, and a smaller company would have incurred a LOSS.

Trust me when I say that in the automotive world, Honda is just a notch above a dwarf among giants. GM and toyota are the real giants, even after you factor in honda's motorcycle, atv, and lawn mower engines, they can't touch the $$$'s that the big guys pull in.



IMHO honda will bring the CTR I think as a 2003 model and the RSX-R as a 2004 model. My reasoning is this. the SI was originally released to the press as a 2003 model but it was then changed to a 2002 model, why.........because the CTR will be the new 2003 model. Maybe. Maybe not, but I think so.

Colin

When was the si released to the press as a 2003 model? Some nuthead at the magazines might have conjectured that it was going to be a 2003, but Honda always knew it would be a 2002, it says so in all the official press releases, and that's official Honda press releases, not the rumor column in the magazines.

Honda has said NOTHING about the CTR coming to the U.S.. I'm sure that there are many people inside honda that would like for the CTR to come over, but the people that matter are the beancounters, the ones who gauge the profitability of a certain action. And bringing the CTR over to the U.S. will NOT be profitable for Honda no matter how you slice it. It wouldn't even really help honda's reputation here in the U.S. since on the whole, their reputation is built on reliable economy cars, not performance cars. Honda leaves the performance image for Acura, in fact, they had some press releases where they made known their desire to further separate Honda from Acura, so that honda's econobox image doesn't rub off on Acura's sporty, luxury image.

iR-VTEC2
07-29-2002, 08:24 PM
On the same note, it is not profitable that Chrysler exists, yet they do......

GM total quarterly sales was 225 million...not just their car's dept.

Smoothie, I try to research things a lot. It also helps that i used to work for GM.

*Edit* Honda's first quarter profit for this year was in an excess of 900 million dollars

DJQuikFingaz
07-29-2002, 08:34 PM
What the hell did chunky just say?

iR-VTEC2
07-29-2002, 09:03 PM
5 billion to develop? Heh. Honda used rapid (yet very thorough) prototyping on all their cars AND the tools to develop them. They're not building a Stealth FIghter heh 5 billion. It cost honda 4.7 million dollars to develop the new civic body type.

This is not the old days of chiseling away at wood to make a car how you want it to look and having to build a completely new factory for each car. Honda has been building modulating facilities which enable quick and cost effective retrofitting for newer models to be introduced.

Look at this..

http://astralaxe.com/b01gmprofits.jpg

They earned 225 million dollars TOTAL for 2001. That's even WORSE than i thought.
http://detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0201/17/b01-392771.htm
Again...honda brought home over 700 million in the FIRST quarter of last year and continued to do so in the remainder of the year to year a total profit (not revenue) of 2.7 billion dollars.
GM's profit per vehicle was $337 dollars last year. Both ford and DC lost money on EACH car.

Honda's profit per car was $1,661 and toyota slightly higher.

Now...How the hell would that be possible if GM was such a "large" company?

It isnt. "honda has few models" CHYA..in north america. But in Asia and Europe there are dozens and dozens of models.

DJQuikFingaz
07-29-2002, 09:08 PM
I've learned more from this thread than a class at my school.

MagusDC5
07-29-2002, 10:43 PM
I think this topics gotten a little side tracked....personally I think there was too much development into the Hatchback that I don't think its going to be nixed after being on the market for one year. It will probably last til the next generation of Civic is released...then we'll probably see the Coupe Si everyone is crying for :(

chunky
07-29-2002, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by iR-VTEC2
5 billion to develop? Heh. Honda used rapid (yet very thorough) prototyping on all their cars AND the tools to develop them. They're not building a Stealth FIghter heh 5 billion. It cost honda 4.7 million dollars to develop the new civic body type.

This is not the old days of chiseling away at wood to make a car how you want it to look and having to build a completely new factory for each car. Honda has been building modulating facilities which enable quick and cost effective retrofitting for newer models to be introduced.

Look at this..

http://astralaxe.com/b01gmprofits.jpg

They earned 225 million dollars TOTAL for 2001. That's even WORSE than i thought.
http://detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0201/17/b01-392771.htm
Again...honda brought home over 700 million in the FIRST quarter of last year and continued to do so in the remainder of the year to year a total profit (not revenue) of 2.7 billion dollars.
GM's profit per vehicle was $337 dollars last year. Both ford and DC lost money on EACH car.

Honda's profit per car was $1,661 and toyota slightly higher.

Now...How the hell would that be possible if GM was such a "large" company?

It isnt. "honda has few models" CHYA..in north america. But in Asia and Europe there are dozens and dozens of models.

You're gonna force me to do my homework. :D

I've read the article you linked. Where does it say that GM only made 225 million for all of 2001?

Here's a direct quote from your article


For all of 2001, GM earned $601 million or $1.77 a share -- way short of its initial 2001 target of $4.25 a share. In 2000, GM earned $4.5 billion.

that's 601 million. Also note that in 2000, GM earned 4.5 billion. Note that earnings = profit in this case. The total revenue from last year was 173 billion.

If you need more proof of the fact that 601$ is the net income from last year for GM, check their investor info on their site - http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/docs/fin_data/gm01ar/finh.html. There it's clearly listed as net income.

Again, if you wanna talk units of sale, since the cost of production varies for honda and GM, last year from january to june, GM sold just over 2 million units. That's 2 million units in 1/2 year. Honda & acura combined sold just over 1 million units in the U.S.

GM sales figures by unit
http://www.gm.com/cgi-bin/investor_news.pl?3070
Honda sales figures by unit:
http://www.hondacorporate.com/press/attachments.html?s=american&y=2002&r=770

But lets talk worldwide, since that's what you guys think counts (honda's not big here, but they're huge in asia & europe right?)

Let's see How honda did last year:


from: http://world.honda.com/investors/financialresult/2002/2001_4th/02.html
Honda's unit sales of automobiles increased by 3.3% to 2,666,000 units, and revenue increased 13.4% to 44,501 million from the previous fiscal year.

now let's see how GM did, once again, checking the GM investor disclosures on their site.

Revenue as mentioned before is 173 billion. that's right, not million, BILLION.
I couldn't find end of year unit results for GM worldwide, but GM's sales in the U.S. alone for 1/2 year is 2.4 million units. So say that it's about 4 million units in the U.S. alone, plus all of GM europe, GM latin america, etc.

Honda isn't even 1/4 the size of GM, that's why GM can appear to loose money, but still stay in business. However, if Honda operated on as thin a margin as GM, they wouldn't be around much longer - THAT is why i'm so sure that honda will always do the financially prudent thing, and in this case, it means killing off the civic hatchback yet again b/c they're not making the expected profit margins.

btw, what's your source on Honda making 700 million $$ in Q1 of 2001?? perhaps you mean 700million yen? ;)

SpeedRacer
07-29-2002, 11:14 PM
sheesh nice argument going on

chunky
07-29-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by SpeedRacer
sheesh nice argument going on

debate. ;) nice and civil.

DJQuikFingaz
07-29-2002, 11:33 PM
Yea it's nice and civil, but damn that's a lot to read.

iR-VTEC2
07-30-2002, 02:31 AM
chunky. We are too smart (or fanatic) for our own good. Im not gonna respond to your response yet. I'll do that at work when i have bordom set in.

I have all the info bookmarked there if you really want to. If not...no biggy you may be right. We'll probably end up arguing about NASA's budget or something. (dont even start!!!)

Hehe. Nice to see someone that strives for information. you rule.

chunky
07-30-2002, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by iR-VTEC2
chunky. We are too smart (or fanatic) for our own good. Im not gonna respond to your response yet. I'll do that at work when i have bordom set in.

I have all the info bookmarked there if you really want to. If not...no biggy you may be right. We'll probably end up arguing about NASA's budget or something. (dont even start!!!)

Hehe. Nice to see someone that strives for information. you rule.

hehe. or we're just really bored a lot. :D

I just try to keep a grip on reality. The more info you have, the better.