k24a2 is in and running better than I imagined.

I wanna preface this post by saying, NOTHING beats a properly built and tuned (managed) setup...

BUT, the way he is adding fuel is the way we USED to have to do it BEFORE there was easily available aftermarket products for Hondas. A lot of you guys may not know about those days. While it CAN be done, it is NOT the most efficient, reliable, nor makes the most power. I mean, we used to swap ECU's from one Civic model to another just to see if it made any more power... damn the wiring pinouts.

Anyways... looking at basemaps from the a3 and a2, they are totally different. But that doesnt mean the k24a2 WONT run off of a k20a3 map. It doesnt mean it WILL grenade the engine. But it does mean that someone was willing to try something different... just to see if it works. Everyone bashed VTEC killer and flipped pin VTEC and an a2 head on an a3 shortblock when it was first discussed... now those setups are becoming more and more popular everyday.

One day, you guys may be thanking this dude for trying this... you never know. But this IS what EPHatch is all about...

You can not apply techniques and procedures from archaic obsolete engine and engine management to todays Kseries,,,,


You WILL destroy the engine.

The K24A2 has the largest small cam lobe that Honda has put on any engine in both lift and duration. when the A3's ECU forces the engine into VTEC Xover at such a low RPM, the engine will be sucking so much air and run so lean that in VERY SHORT order the engine will be in need of replacement.

If you think the gains you have seen now are good, then a properly tuned engine will cause you to faint!

Putting the wrong ecu in your car is totally different from things like the vtec killer setup. I agree that one day someone will thank the op for trying this but not for a good reason. He will probably be thanked for trying it so that people know NOT to do it. What your not understanding is that he is NOT adding fuel at all. Like talon said its going to run so lean that it won't take long to damage the motor considering it will be running in vtec during any normal driving. I think what ephatch is all about is people helping people out before they make a $1500 mistake, I don't think anyone has bashed anything here we are just letting him know it WILL NOT work and if he chooses to do it we would like to know the results.
OP get a wideband gauge and you will see right away what we are talking about.

mmmm yeah kpro>all.

i bought kpro for my stock a3. after all the time i've spent with it so far, you can see things in the fuel maps that are very different from base map to base map.

dont drive anymore. get kpro. no point in buying exhaust pieces for a motor thats going to die. if you don't get it, you will spend another 12-1800+ on another engine. that could buy kpro and exhaust.

i haven't driven my turbo k24a2 in almost 4 months, because i don't even have a basemap to start driving with. it sucks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talonXracer

You can not apply techniques and procedures from archaic obsolete engine and engine management to todays Kseries,,,,


You WILL destroy the engine.

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You know the ECU does the same math that you can do on paper, right? Whats the difference? Who's to say that we cant do some math FOR the ECU? Arent we the ones that 'program' it anyways?

I wasnt trying to get into a debate over what can and cant be done... but to come in any say 'you cant do that' when it IS (and HAS) being/been done... is kinda retarded.

How is he going to run the engine lean if he has 25% OVER TOP of the 310's additional fuel to the a3 ECU tune? Lets approximate... its assumed k24's use 20% more fuel than k20's. I know for FACT (and i dont even need to break out the math for this) you can run a k24a1/310's on an a3 ECU WITH I/RH/E and NOT lean out. So on top of the 310's we add a max of 25% LTF adjustment, and we have a total of 45% additional fuel over the a3 270cc map.

Are you trying to tell me that a stock k24a2 with a 25 degree max cam advance cap is really gonna use all of that fuel? If so he would have had a CEL by now because LTF adjustment would have been maxed.

And im sorry, 25 degrees of VTC on a TSX cam is not like 40 degrees of VTC on a k20a3 cam.

AGAIN... im not saying this is the best way to do this. But if we jump on the 'youre gonna blow your ISH up like that' bandwagon, then all were doing is becoming like those other websites that tell you, 'this is the right way and youre stupid to do it any other way'.

What i mean when i say, 'this is what EPHatch is all about'... at one time we all had posts that others thought were stupid or repetitive. But we dont now.. so why act like that? Why tell someone what they are doing is WRONG or CANT be done? Pass on current knowledge, and let that person decide for themselves if they wanna take the route they are looking at.

We are all here to learn, and that is to say even the most knowledgeable person can and WILL be wrong at one time or another...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ba82Ep3

AGAIN... im not saying this is the best way to do this. But if we jump on the 'youre gonna blow your ISH up like that' bandwagon, then all were doing is becoming like those other websites that tell you, 'this is the right way and youre stupid to do it any other way'.

What i mean when i say, 'this is what EPHatch is all about'... at one time we all had posts that others thought were stupid or repetitive. But we dont now.. so why act like that? Why tell someone what they are doing is WRONG or CANT be done? Pass on current knowledge, and let that person decide for themselves if they wanna take the route they are looking at.

We are all here to learn, and that is to say even the most knowledgeable person can and WILL be wrong at one time or another...

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This has nothing to do with jumping on the bandwagon, wrong is just wrong and running a k24a2 on a k20a3 ecu is wrong. what if some guy came on here saying that he was going to run 15psi on a stock ecu because he thinks it will work? Do we encourage it? No of course not then we would be on the who gives a sh*t bandwagon like alot of other sites. We are giving him the best advice so that he doesn't make a big mistake. There are alot of times on here people ask about doing something and they are told not to do it or your motor will blow up and this is no different.

Because even with 310's in there the fuel map is seriously lean, and that is taking into account the original fuel map was intended for 270's.

And your example of a K24A1 with a I/RH/E with 310's on a stock A3 ECU most certainly will be running lean, I HAVE DONE IT AND CHECKED THE A/F AT WOT, IT WAS LEAN ENOUGH TO CAUSE DAMAGE IF RAN HARD! ! !

Go ahead and dont believe me, do what you want, running the K24A2 on a K20A3 ECU will ruin the engine eventually, even with your fuzzy math. WTF happens when you go into WOT and are no longer running any fuel trim? and you are lean as all hell?

And i didnt say it would blow up immediately, as long as he takes it easy it will work for awhile until he can get Kpro, but eventually the engine will die an early death, I have seen it dozens of times now that the youngins have started owning and modding Kseries rides. You would be surprised how often this is tried(usually in a base RSX) with what appears to be success at first, and then after awhile the little things start occuring and the days are numbered.

Just let the guy run a k24a2 w/ 310cc injectors on the stock a3 ecu. Give it a month that he will be posting up on a blown k24a2 and wondering what happened. I take dibs on the head :P. but on a serious note, listen to these people or just go to k20a.org and get laughed at. For one why would you even want to run a k24a2 on a stock a3 ecu. You wouldn't even get any potential out of it. buying a race header would just make that end result (blown k24) come apon faster. think and stop acting cocky.

Ok for 1 if you havent read this post from the start dont post comments when you dont know what your talking about i dont plan on running this ecu for more than a week or 2 at most i had unforseen expenses AS of late 1 being the rbc intake manifold another is having to move also i already have an aem ems and will have it tuned shortly i just want to find the right person and am not willing to settle for a shitty tune !!! Secondly like i said i work at acura me and the tech who installed it check all paramiters and my fuel trim goes between 1.00 which is perfect to 1.08 at worse all the way up to 6k rpms and if does go more than 25% over or under my cel will come on. I have had this in and running since sat and since then my fuel use has actually been pretty much the same as my a3 i also understand that the motor isnt perfoming anywhere near designed especially as far as performance goes and am in no way driving it like a race car !!!

OK as I mentioned you will be safe for a day or two if you do not go WOT much. That is the very point you are not grasping, the fuel trim is disabled during WOT so the readings you are seeing are not real time but the last value seen before WOT open loop. I have absolutely no trust for any Honda tech, sure they can do repairs on a stock car, or even do your swap, but I have YET to actually meet a tech in person that knew his head from his ass, not because ability, but simply they dont have the specialized knowledge developed over years of dealing with a single platform. Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.......

I do not plan on going wot or even above 5k because i know what damage can be caused I am 30 years old and have been doing this since 17 and the tech working on my car has been doing it for just as long if not longer. I am not arguing the fact that it cant cause internal damage because it can i am just saying with what i am doing for as short of a period of time i plan to be doing it i really shouldnt have any problems.

That will help,,,,the big problem is that the ECU will go into open loop above 2800rpm when VTEC engages because the map values are so much different as well as CLV being skewed. Your best bet would be to disable the spool valve to keep the engine in low cam operation at all times.


Also why the choice of AEM for engine management? Support and top notch tuners are lacking for that platform.

Because i got it super cheap and i have found a tuner it really isnt to much different than hondata once its set up

You cant beat cheap! LOL

Who are you looking at for tuning?

Hell nah you cant beat cheap !!! I paid $100 for the ems (long story) and $70.00 for the aem connectors to run my a/c and coolant temp. Sensor. I actually found a very well known guy locally who tunes pretty much every platform (mainly hondas) and prefers aem but like i said before he is asking $350 but from what i have come to gather isnt to expensive for a full set-up and dyno tune just need to come up with the $$$$