K24A1 swap: small parts, procedures, etc

So here we go, another swap parts list.
Except after digging around the last couple of weeks I can't find solid answers to the questions I have, so I figure a new thread is in order.

BACKGROUND
I drive a 2003 EP3, still rocking the original A3 after 256k miles and almost 11 years.
She still runs pretty strong but time and miles add up.
I burn more oil than I'm comfortable with, and suspect the head gasket may be starting to leak.
I've thought about swapping in the past, but it looks like it's time to start working on it in earnest.

GOALS
K24A1 swap
Reliable daily driver
NA for the foreseeable future

PARTS - KNOWN
CRV passenger mount - got; came with my engine.
EM2 sway bar - I'm running an ITR header: May not be necessary but I wouldn't mind a lighter front sway anyway.
Plan to re-use all of the pertinent stuff from the A3 (PRC manifold, starter, etc)

PARTS - QUESTIONS
Z3 oil pump
What exactly is the parts list for this?
I've seen that you need the pump, baffle, and pan.
But I've also seen it said that you can run the K24 pan, which is preferable since it's stamped steel.
What about the oil pump chain?
Chain guides?

Do I just buy part #29 from the diagram below and plug it in?

http://cdn.revolutionparts.com/ill2....600&make=honda
http://www.hondapartscheap.com/auto-...6-speed-manual

Is there a balancing procedure?

Starter
Plan on replacing this since you're supposed to use the A3 unit, but mine is grindy.
The engine came with one, but it looks pretty worn.
So, K20A3, or K24A1?
Does it matter?

Head Studs
So one of these snapped already, when starting to take the valve cover off for clean up.
Figure it's a good excuse to upgrade to ARP studs, but I only see the K20A2 and A3 listed as applications on ARP's website.
Will ARP studs work on the K24? I know it's a slightly taller engine, but is that height somewhere else?

Miscellaneous
I know the external parts, sensors etc are all supposed to swap straight over, but does anyone have any insight? Any snag areas?

PROCEDURES
The davis guide is pretty solid, but I've got a couple grey areas.
Transmission: pull with the motor?
Unbolt in the car?
When I'm hooking it back up, clutch alignment?
External systems like alternator, water pump, AC etc: bolt on, then drop the motor in? I assume so but maybe that's wrong lol!


I know a lot of this has been touched on, but after serious digging I couldn't find anything comprehensive.

Hit me!



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Soooo...nothing, then?
Damn.

This is what I know from my k24a2 swap. You can pull the engine and trans from the top but no need to pull the trans. You will mount the clutch on the flywheel which is attached to the engine. You will align the clutch while its out of the bay.

I used the starter that came with my swap which was the k24a2 one. I don't see a need to use the k20 starter.

I didn't do any engine work. The person who was building the engine before me installed an rbc cam gear. I have no idea about any of the other stuff.

Sounds like you are talking about the studs that hold the cam cap assembly in place. Those are different from head bolts. You dont get to the head bolts until you take the entire cam and rocker assembly out of the head.

For me it was easiest to pull the engine and trans from the top in one piece. Taking the trans off with the engine in the bay is a nightmare as there is NOT a lot of room between the end of the trans case and the frame rail. Even if i was pulling the trans for a clutch swap... i still pulled the engine. It isnt that much more work, the job is much easier, and you have plenty of room to work. The dowel pins between the trans and engine block can be a nightmare when you are trying to get the trans input shaft splines to line up... and not beat the hell out of the pilot bushing in the end of the crankshaft.

Dont open the AC lines... just tuck the AC compressor out of the way on the subframe with the lines attached. Also take the brake reservior loose from the firewall and have a friend hold the AC line back as you life the engine out of the bay.

Starter can be reused from 2.0 to 2.4. NO issues.

Youre throwing $ away on the z3 pump. Its only better than what you have (k24a1/k20a3 oil pump is the same) in the upper RPMs that you wont use. Youre better off going with a k20a2 oil pump setup that loses the balance shafts for a little more power throughout the rev range.

As a suggestion... keep the stock front swaybar. I hated a thinner bar on the front of the EP... and went with a thicker Progress bar in the rear... then the Hotchkis RSX-S front and rear hollow bars. Far better that the OEM/Progress stuff.

Anything i miss... let me know.

Nice!
See, good info there, and all small bits of knowledge that are just hard as hell to track down individually, let alone in one place!

Figured I'd be pulling engine/tranny together, but you never know.
Not having to dump/refill the AC should make things quite a bit easier, so that's excellent.

Starter is going to be new, but good to know I can just snag the cheaper model (assuming there is one, LOL)

As for the oil pump, one thing I read is that the Z3 pump maintains better pressure at idle, which IS useful in my daily racer :D
Any truth to that as far as you know?
Not discounting your info, you're throwing things out I hadn't read so very interesting.
But the whole point of this is gathering knowledge in one place, so let me know what you've heard/seen!

As for the sway, worried the ITR 4-2-1 I'm running is going to have issues, and I've always kinda wanted a smaller front sway :D
I might still try it, as it's a pretty cheap adjustment to make.
Got a Progress 22mm in the back with the tie bar, been running that for years.

Appreciate all the info man, let me know if you've got any more details on the oil pump battle haha.

EDIT:
Oh, and good looking out on the head studs vs. head cover bolts.
LOL I got all excited about buying some serious hardware!
...which I may still do because hey, why not?

Im one for crackin the head off in a heartbeat... but if you replace the headbolts you need to replace the headgasket and while youre at it... (get the idea?) lol

The oil pump advantage will be minimal at best, but its your call. I know you can use either the stock steel pan or a cast pan (+ whatever bolts you need to make it work as cast pan bolts are longer, and you have two bolts that bolt into your trans as well), and you need the chain, guide, tensioner, and the baffle/bolt parts. There is no advantage with either pan in your case (except that the cast pan ties the trans and block together with two more bolts)... you have a subframe protecting your oil pan. For me since i moved from an EP to an older Civic with no subframe, my oil pan is much lower and prone to damage. I have a k20z PDF Honda manual... i can look to see if there is a timing order with the pump and engine if you like... as im sure there is one.

I cant comment on the ITR header/sway info... ive never used one nor had hands on with one. But i DO know that what works for one will not always work for someone else. So take the info you get as a guideline... not doctrine. One accident can change how everything lines up... even after its been fixed. Im sure its one reason i could use the parts i did on my 05 k24 EP and others couldnt... because mine was never hit.

Another reason i hated the smaller front swaybar (or no bar at all) is it made the front end wash out mid corner at speed. It was popular with the autox guys... but they dodge cones rarely getting out of third gear. Im talking 70mph+ corners where you have to be steady with your steering and throttle inputs to get from corner to corner. There are a lot of opinions on suspension setup. HASBRO on here could advise on on current info and point you in the right direction with whats available now. If anything he might can help you avoid spending/wasting $ on something that will end up in storage later on. Careful tho... you might get more info than you bargained for. LOL So stay on your toes...

:mcool:

I'd kinda planned on replacing the head gasket and pretty much every other gasket on the head already, as well as redoing the oil pan gasket since I'd be pulling the pump anyway.

Basically, I got the motor at a good price, 80k miles on it.
It's pretty rough looking, so I figured I'd do a full refresh before prepping it for the swap.

Let me ask you this, as I've never done a full tear-down before:
If I pull the head, in order to replace/beef up various parts, how does that affect the bottom end?
I mean, beyond timing, since obviously you'll have to reset timing when you re-install the head/cams/chain/etc.

Does the bottom end have to be reset in any way once you're into pulling the head gasket and the like?

I guess what I'm wondering is, if you pull the head and do a full refreshing of it, does that mean you kind of have to pull the bottom end apart and refresh that, as well?

Haha pardon my newbishness.
Been wrenching on Hondas and Acuras for a loooong time, but never gotten into anything this ambitious. :D

PS: I'm all for the "you might as well..." part of this, in case you were wondering.
Might as well spend some of what I saved and make as fresh a start as possible with the engine.

So, 164 views, and only one guy responds.
Wow.

I am disappoint.

It really depends on the condition of the engine. Ive had k20's go 40k miles and show NO measureable wear on rod/main bearings... and the cylinder walls still have the crosshatching from the factory. Maintenance history is key here.

You really have no idea what youre getting when you open a used engine.

I assumed the worst. Totally rebuilt my k24a1 bottom to top. You can assume the best and drop in and go. But rebuilding the head will not "pull out" a bottom end... as is the popular statement amongst old school domestic engine builders... unless the bottom end was garbage to begin with.

K series mostly uses sealant for gaskets throughout the engine. The oil pan is sealant. Block to girdle is sealant. Timing cover to block is sealant (but there are o ring seals underneath). No trans to block seal. Head to block is your typical head gasket. Valve cover to head is rubber gasket. Prep is important for resealing all sealant areas.

Timing between the engine block and head is covered in the OEM manual... thoroughly. Its very easy to do if you realize the cam and crank marks have to be in time... and the marks on the chain dont mean crap. As i said about the z3 oil pump... im sure it does have a timing sequence as its a balance shaft pump... but it would be set after head and block are set properly.

Have you been on k20a.org? Not that this site isnt a valuable resource... but it doesnt see the traffic it once did. If youre serious about an engine rebuild... take the time to familiarize yourself with the OEM manual (k20a2 and k20a3... k24a1 follows k20a3 mostly) and the sticky links in the engine section on k20a.org. Yes... there is a lot there covering k swaps into other chassis... but the info is all there. Otherwise... youll need someone that has successfully built and tuned NA and boosted k series angines and transmissions on speed dial. lol

On most of these forums... you wont get a lot of replies if the regular posting members feel you havent really looked/read enough. Trust me... no response is better than some of the BS smart ass answers you get elsewhere. Just take it as an opportunity to do some more reading and research... then be sure to share your findings to benefit everyone... even if you think we arent reading. : )

I hear you on all those points man.

I've worked on the K series quite a bit, just never a full rebuild/swap.
Figure this is the opportunity to get that under my belt. :D
But as with any big job you've never done, there are lots of questions and gaps in knowledge/experience, and I like to fill as many of those holes as possible before I'm standing over a pile of parts going..."WTF have I done now?!"

I feel like we haven't really chatted in the past, but I HAVE been around for quite a while.
Not to be defensive, just introducing myself a little!
I've definitely seen the nasty side of questions here.
Track down my thread asking about Reflashing a high mileage engine some time. That one got snippy LOL!

I know timing, had to replace the exhaust cam on the A3 a while back due to galling.
Did it the hard way; accidentally dropped the chain LOL, so no worries there.

As for research, haven't really hit K20A.org but that's a good point. Probably need to cast a wider net here!
And I'm the guy on the FB page that's always ranting about no one using the website/doing any homework, so don't get me wrong:
I'm ALL about doing the legwork!
Reading through all of the stickies and related threads I could find here, just felt there was a gap in knowledge between

• How to oil change
• Advanced tuning for street insanity

LOL

Like I said in the initial post, a lot of this stuff is tough to find comprehensive answers to, so thought I'd get a thread going in the hopes of dumping all the info in one spot.
Haha, maybe that won't work out, but I wanted to try. :D

Thanks again for all the info you have thrown out, much appreciated!
You've already helped me realize I probably don't want to run the EM2 sway.
I'd never really read that the guys running it were doing so for Auto-X purposes, but that makes sense...as does NOT wanting the front end that loose at highway speeds. :nervous:

Oh, and I've always had the EP3 service manual (actual paper hard copy, direct from Helms), and ordered the 2003 CR-V manual a few days ago.
NOTHING like having the "bible" in front of you in the garage! :thumbu:

Roger that... and thanks for not taking what i said personally. Some people really get defensive on the web. :thumbu:

I feel ya on 'getting it under the belt'... i did the same thing with my k trans. Mine was the first i ever cracked open. But i felt if i could build an engine... i should be able to use logistical process and have the same success with my trans. Well... i aint stopped yet. lol

I agree... k20a.org does require some sifting... and a lot of it now seems to lean towards parts showoff and sales of prebuilt cars. But there are plenty of very useful links... Signalpukes sig being the best source of them... and he edits it often for accuracy and updates.

Myself... im always around. Sometimes not as often as i would like, but thats life. :mwink:

Oh, so here's a question that I forgot to throw into the first post:
ARP head studs: pros and cons aside, I've only seen one set available for the K-series.
LINK: ARP K20 Head Studs

Looks like that's specific to the K20 engines. So it would appear there's not a K24-specific kit.
Same deal?
Are specs different in a critical area that disallows use of this kit?

Again, after digging through this site and a lot of info at K20A no answer that I've found.

EDIT
And then, I magically found this thread at K20A using the same exact search terms, for the first time. LOL
SO no difference in K20/K24 head stud applications.
Check.

Just saw this... yes the difference between the 2.0 and the 2.4 is in the stroke and bore... block deck height is taller on the 2.4 (19mm). So head bolts are the same between the two as the heads are the same heights and interchangeable (dimensionally).

Which Kpro base map would you guys use to start up the motor (K24a1) with i/h/e and k20a2 oil pump? Any advice?

You can use a k20a3 I/H/E basemap and add 20% fuel trim. Watch your long term and short term fuel changes (sensor window in KManager) and you can reduce the 20% added, a percent at a time to get it a little better until you can get it tuned.