New CybernationTurbo Stage I record 2003 Civic SI

[esmith13]

Originally posted by danoonez
So you still need Black Magic?

I forgot to mention that part...

As of now with the test Guardian boxes, you need the ELF chip too.

CN is considering incorporating the ELF into it or into a version of it - however if they decide to market the Guardian as it's own thing not specifically as part of a kit (like the AFC is marketed by Apexi) they would be wise NOT to incorporate it so it works on applications that keep the cat.

Time will tell what the retail version holds...

Eric

[Most-Wanted]

Andy-It is great to see everyone pushing further and further. If you don't push the envelope, you'll never learn the full potential. These cars really do have alot of potential as these engine builders are proving. If your ever in the area again give me a shout.

[02SilverSiHB]

damn! way to go CN!

[VBSI]

Well, a 10-20 HP difference doesn't matter to me between kits, but attitude, cockiness and "my dick is bigger than yours" matter big time. I watch from a distance as to how both kits are represented around here and draw my conclusions from that. Now, with that said, I imagine a clutch upgrade will be 100% required in all cases...which is the best or most advised replacement?

[03CivicSi]

Clutchmasters Stage 4

[03CivicSi]

"The next step is a revised RSX base model and Civic Si stage I turbo kit that will cost $3699 making it the lowest cost and highest performing bolt-on turbo kit available for those models. The kits will be sold with Guardian revision A at 9 psi producing 270whp 215tq."

So does this mean they are making a WHOLE new kit? or is it going to be like the current kit except replace the APEX'i with the Guardian EI system?? like.. are we still going to be getting all of those parts on the turbo list or will we have a couple missing even though we're still getting more power(j/w on that one)??

Thanks

[esmith13]

Kit is identical aside from having the Guardian EI and NOT having the S-AFC II. It's also possible if they incorporate the ELF chip that may dissapear from the list as well. All other kit parts remain identical, but the price will be dropped from $4000 to $3700. Probably because it's now 90% profit on the Guardian versus the measly 5-10% profit they made on the S-AFC.

Eric

[esmith13]

Oh, wait...

The Guardian EI prevents the need for a return fuel line! I forgot that part!

So that means alot of the 350psi fuel line won't be in the new kit and a couple fittings as well... Also the secondary MSD fuel pump probably won't be needed - at least for Stage I, but since CN builds their Stage I kit to be good thru stage III (minus internals of course) they may still include it making the assumption that the stock fuel pump won't handle pumping enough fuel for 19+ psi of boost.

I will have to call CN again to find out what's up with the fuel pump scenario... I trully doubt it will e needed for 9psi anymore, but CN used to brag often about their kit being good thru stage III... I'll try to call today and ask.

Eric

[03CivicSi]

Originally posted by esmith13
It's also possible if they incorporate the ELF chip that may dissapear from the list as well.

No ECU? How exactly does the ELF upgrade the stock one? Is it just timing and everything or any redline increase or...?


Thanks

[esmith13]

The only thing the ELF chip does is suppress CEL codes that should not be seen (like the presence of boost)and also acts as an O2 Simulator and MAF Simulator.

So in a CN setup (currently) you have:

Stock ECU - acts normally and swears the engine is completely stock.

ELF Chip - O2 Sim., MAF Sim and supress the Stock ECU's complaining about boost presence, rich fuel conditions, etc. ELF chip is a TEMPORARY flash module. When you first start the car it "flashes" the stock ECU to do it's bidding and then does absolutely nothing untill the car is turned off and then on again at which time it flashes the ECU again since it's flash isn't permenant. You could literally disconnect the ELF once your car is started and function normally.

S-AFC II - intercepts the stock ECU's fuel settings and modifies them on the fly to what is needed for the turbo/larger injectors to be happy and run at a good A/F ratio.


In the NEW setup they are working on you will have:

Stock ECU

Guardian EI

ELF Chip if not embeded in the Guardian Box


I can imagine EXACTLY how the Guardian works... If you've ever been involved in Dyno tuning your own car it very simple.

On the dyno, the car is driven under normal load. With the guardian you literally drive it.
With the dyno and the guardian, you start with overly rich settings to be safe, and back out excess fuel as you tune to perfection.
You continue to back out more fuel till you reach an optimum A/F ratio which is determined by a tailpipe sniffer on the dyno that is a wideband O2 sensor. This is the only part I haven't exactly figured out about the Guardian. Only thing I can think of is that the now defunct secondary O2 sensor on our car is good enough to determine the A/F ratio fairly accurately and the guardian uses that to tune with instead of how you use a wideband O2 sensor on a dyno. Maybe CN has a wideband sensor included with the new computer to swap out with the secondary O2 we have now???

It could work. Alls that means as while your driving with whatever it determines to be your current fuel map, it's always checking current performance at a specific RPM/Throttle position so it can update the fuel setting for the next time you hit that exact RPM/Throttle setting.

Think of it as this. Every time you get behind the wheel there is a computer dyno tuning your car. Everytime you touch the gas it's tuning. And the best part is it will be more accurate than a dyno. You get the fuel map set up based on the actual amount and tempature of air your car is breathing outside on the street versus what it gets in the shop on the dyno with fans set up to "emulate" the air forced across the IC and the air accessable by the intake filter.

I'm getting all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it....

Eric

[03CivicSi]

Thanks for the write up.. I just have a couple more.
if some of this isn't really something to worry about just say so.. thanks I just wanna learn as much as I can about most/all of this

If the ELF is a temporary ECU, what would we use as our main one if we were to go to a permanent one?

and you said "On the dyno, the car is driven under normal load. With the guardian you literally drive it.
With the dyno and the guardian, you start with overly rich settings to be safe, and back out excess fuel as you tune to perfection.
You continue to back out more fuel till you reach an optimum A/F ratio which is determined by a tailpipe sniffer on the dyno that is a wideband O2 sensor.

What do you mean by all that adjusting fuel injection part stuff?

and when you were talking about the Dyno, does that mean it is necessary to tune on the dyno so the ELF Guardian better knows when to adjust the fuel at the correct RPM/throttle range? or will it "learn" right from when you take it out right away on the highway or whatever?

ONE more, sorry lol but.. if you were to have this turbo and the Guardian learned when to adjust fuel/air, then you were to modify the car EVEN MORE... would it change itself or go back to current settings? like if the RPM's or speed went up due to modifying/making the car faster...


Thanks:)

[esmith13]

OK, I'm going to assume by your questions your VERY new to this...

1. If the ELF is a temporary ECU, what would we use as our main one if we were to go to a permanent one?

Um, your confused. Your car runs off of the computer Honda put in it. The ELF simply "overrides" some settings to ignore the turbo so you car dosen't have a cow. If the elf i not in the new kit seperately, that means it's PART of the guardian now - meaning just in the same box instead of having two things to wire up.

2. What do you mean by all that adjusting fuel injection part stuff?

Well, how to put it... The ECU honda put in our cars knows how much fuel to inject into the cylindars to mix/combust with the amoput of air the stock airbox brings into the engine. The guardian AND the Apexi "intercept" that magic number and adjust it as needed for the reality that the turbo is forcing a hell-of-a-lot more air into the engine than the computer thinks/expects. Too much air and not enough fuel to go with it make car go BOOM!!

3. and when you were talking about the Dyno, does that mean it is necessary to tune on the dyno so the ELF Guardian better knows when to adjust the fuel at the correct RPM/throttle range? or will it "learn" right from when you take it out right away on the highway or whatever?

No, you will NEVER have to dyno with the Guardian - EVER. You will, however, have to set it initially using a Computer/Laptop for the amount of boost you are running so it knows what "generic" fuel map to start with so your car dosen't blow up when you first turn the key and give it gas. Technically the Guardian would have to work on an "after the fact" basis. It see's room for improvement on a setting it just used and changes it on the map for the next tim eit's needed.

4. ONE more, sorry lol but.. if you were to have this turbo and the Guardian learned when to adjust fuel/air, then you were to modify the car EVEN MORE... would it change itself or go back to current settings? like if the RPM's or speed went up due to modifying/making the car faster...

Yes it would change itself. However, you reasoning about speed going up due to mods is not relevant to the fuel map, but any mods you did that WOULD matter would be adjusted on the fly... It would literally ALWAYS be looking for a better setting even if it currently was at the best setting. The tuning chip would never rest. even at idle it would vary fuel on the fly so if it magically dropped 50 degrees outside in a split second your car wouldn't lean out all of a sudden like a turbo'd car would now...

Hope this helps ya.

Eric

[03CivicSi]

(the speed to fuel thing was a little screwy,lol)

But thanks so much!:D I understand a lot better now.
sounds freaking awesome.


oh and p.s. I'm sorry if I cut into anyone elses posting time or "invaded a thread":o

[Rueda del Queso]

Hmm, $500 for an automatically tuning, redline-increasing stand alone air-fuel computer? Screw hondata!

[esmith13]

Very good point... And this is VERY Turbo friendly, unlike hondata which works against the principals of boost.

Hondata makes it's power by leaning out the mix and stabilizing the power curve. Turbo's need more fuel and do NOT have linear power bands.

This would be like a "Universial Hondata". or "Automatic S-AFC".

They could make a mint just selling this item alone to people with all kinds of setups. But i have a feeling it may be programmed to talk to a k-series only due to how it works - not that they couldn't program some for other engines/ECU's but you get the idea...


Eric