HELP: Hondata's "stock" k24a2 tune

[chubbychu]

With the supplied calibrations in k-pro from Hondata, there is a supposedly stock TSX tune. This is in fact not true. From Hondata's user forum, a thread regarding this k24a2 tune reveals that it is closer to the TSX reflash offered.

http://www.hondata.net/forum/viewtop...d422c9a60dae30

This tune contains all the normal good stuff that hondata does to their tunes. (optimized VTEC crossover, redline, fuel, ignition...etc...). So heres the problem:

From the first day after having the k24a2 swap done, I used this tune and would severely knock and ping from 4600(VTEC)-6000(STOCK VTEC) rpm. After severely retarding the ignition (6-8*)from rpms 4600 to around 6000rpm @ WOT, I felt like It was making the car run a lot slower. And not only that but I was still getting random knocking from untuned areas of the map, and strangely enough the knock sensor would illuminate at the VTEC crossover point (4600) depending on throttle position.

well, I felt fed up with that crappy tune. and decided to put VTEC back to 6000 and see what that would do. Unfortunately now the car, doesn't utilize VTEC until 6,000rpms HOWEVER, I feel it is a lot more drivable and it DOES feel pretty cool to get a real vtec kick.

If possible, I would really appreciate it if someone could take a look at some tunes for me.

I'm gonna go take some fresh ones first thing in the morning. Thanks!

Modifications: SRI, Stock ep3 Header 2-1/4" midpipe, RBB manifold.

[Slip_Angle]

That was my post!

I didn't find the tune knocked much but it sure was lean in areas. STFT was crazy pretty much everywhere in WOT and Closed Loop.

I over-laid the TODA K20a2 fuel maps and A/F got much better across the board ... tuning got much easier.

Your knocking seems excessive and I wonder if you have a knock sensor issue. With the ignition values in the k24a2 tune you should be knocking very little and certainly not having to remove 6-8 degrees. What is the A/F in the areas your knocking? Is your vtec cross-over going really lean?

[jimmyjames]

This is kind of BS isn't it? There should be a stock K24 tune available.
Email this guy as he has a tune for a K24A2 w/ bolt ons (rbc, cai, jrrh, t1r midpipe, stock axle back on an EP). hhaw3(at)hotmail.com

Link to slip_angle's/hondata's K24A2 thread for reference:
http://www.hondata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25775

[talonXracer]

No two engines will run the same off the same cal.

Did you try adding fuel instead of pulling ignition, and are they all true knock?

Did you check the valve lash?

I start with a K20A2 calibration with adding 10% fuel to all tables and another 10% on the low cam tables, then street tune from there and it usually works out very well untill the engine can get on the dyno.

[beechstreet]

maybe get it dynotuned? Contact BlackTrax if you havent already!

[Jpax]

No two engines will run the same off the same cal.

Did you try adding fuel instead of pulling ignition, and are they all true knock?

Did you check the valve lash?

I start with a K20A2 calibration with adding 10% fuel to all tables and another 10% on the low cam tables, then street tune from there and it usually works out very well untill the engine can get on the dyno.

do this first,

You need to check A/F first and then adjust Ignition,
start with out a target A/F around 13.5 for N/A then if its knocking still then pull igniton, it shouldn't have to be that much retarded by 8 degrees seems like alot, are you running high oct. fuel?

[chubbychu]

do this first,

You need to check A/F first and then adjust Ignition,
start with out a target A/F around 13.5 for N/A then if its knocking still then pull igniton, it shouldn't have to be that much retarded by 8 degrees seems like alot, are you running high oct. fuel?

Ive been getting 91 :)

I started off the tune making sure A/F was as close as possible to the preset target A/F as prescribed on the MAP.

columns 1-7 @ 14.7 and columns 8-10 @ 13.5

I guess thats something i didnt think about, but, if i set the target A/F lower will that help with everything? Most of my knocking happens at partial throttle anyways.

Would it be better to Re-tool my current tune? Or start over with Hondata's "stock" TSX tune.

Also, Do I leave the WHOLE map @ 13.5 Target A/F? OR better to have it change values between different parts of the fuel map (like the Hondata one)?

Ive been doing a lot of data-logging, however, I keep playing with maps as soon As I get them logged, rendering the Tune outdated. I will however got something for you guys to check out as soon as possible.

[Tnhatch03]

some tuning does not take into account part throttle acceleration. when i had my emanage, it was not tuned for part throttle. it was either wide open or normal driving. it takes more time to tune for part throttle.

good luck man. hopefully you get it figured out.

[chubbychu]

some tuning does not take into account part throttle acceleration. when i had my emanage, it was not tuned for part throttle. it was either wide open or normal driving. it takes more time to tune for part throttle.

good luck man. hopefully you get it figured out.

Oh, im sure thisll work out, just takes time. like you said. BtW: are you referring to open/closed loop? or is that something different?

The majority of random knocking happens around part throttle (4000rpm @ 3/4 throttle), so that made me suspect it was due to the A/F @ 14.7 in those columns.

I just need to know whether to leave the whole map at 13.5 or have different target A/F ratios; before i start tuning again.

[Tnhatch03]

Oh, im sure thisll work out, just takes time. like you said. BtW: are you referring to open/closed loop? or is that something different?

The majority of random knocking happens around part throttle (4000rpm @ 3/4 throttle), so that made me suspect it was due to the A/F @ 14.7 in those columns.

I just need to know whether to leave the whole map at 13.5 or have different target A/F ratios; before i start tuning again.

closed/open loop is different. when you are tuning, you want the parameter in Open Loop.

i will not even attempt to answer the A/F questions. my tuning knowledge is VERY VERY minimal, if that.

[chubbychu]

closed/open loop is different. when you are tuning, you want the parameter in Open Loop.

i will not even attempt to answer the A/F questions. my tuning knowledge is VERY VERY minimal, if that.

then what u talkin bout willis?! haha jk jk. Actually, any kind of input is good! And i appreciate it a lot!

WOT automatically puts you in OPEN loop. Which is super helpful for...well... WOT tuning. (duh) lol. :)

Alright, well, in that case, I'll wait on pax for a definite answer. I Cant wait to resolve this power/knocking issue.

By the way again, the car drives fine. with maybe 5-6 knocks for the 15 minute drive home. Mostly when i step on it from partial throttle. It would just be nice to get a little more power from the little guy.

[talonXracer]

But if you are in closed loop while tuning, the Long Term fuel trim is used when in WOT, so if your part throttle tune is off by alot your WOT run is adjusted by the LTFT amount.

After you get dyno tuned you still have 5-10 hours of street tuning to do for part throttle.

5-6 knocks is not that bad, some knocks are inevitable(sp).

[Slip_Angle]

But if you are in closed loop while tuning, the Long Term fuel trim is used when in WOT, so if your part throttle tune is off by alot your WOT run is adjusted by the LTFT amount.

Fuel trim is not operational in open loop.

[Slip_Angle]

Ive been getting 91 :)

I started off the tune making sure A/F was as close as possible to the preset target A/F as prescribed on the MAP.

columns 1-7 @ 14.7 and columns 8-10 @ 13.5

I guess thats something i didnt think about, but, if i set the target A/F lower will that help with everything? Most of my knocking happens at partial throttle anyways.

Would it be better to Re-tool my current tune? Or start over with Hondata's "stock" TSX tune.

Also, Do I leave the WHOLE map @ 13.5 Target A/F? OR better to have it change values between different parts of the fuel map (like the Hondata one)?

Ive been doing a lot of data-logging, however, I keep playing with maps as soon As I get them logged, rendering the Tune outdated. I will however got something for you guys to check out as soon as possible.

14.7 is good for closed loop. 13.2 - 13.5 is good for open loop. I use 13.2.

Don't put the whole map to 13.5, you'll just be wasting gas.

When is your knock occurring? Is it at throttle tip in? IE: Just when you hit the gas? If so, you can adjust the TPS ignition retard for the gear it happens in.

Did you try removing 2 degrees ignition for both cam angles?

[Jpax]

14.7 is good for closed loop. 13.2 - 13.5 is good for open loop. I use 13.2.

Don't put the whole map to 13.5, you'll just be wasting gas.

When is your knock occurring? Is it at throttle tip in? IE: Just when you hit the gas? If so, you can adjust the TPS ignition retard for the gear it happens in.

Did you try removing 2 degrees ignition for both cam angles?

This was what I was going to say, and to add to this

the Kal you showed up your cam angles are before high cam switch (part throttle coloms 3 ~ 7 ) are very step curve so what might be happening is under part thottle around 3500 rpm the cam angles are 8~12 degrees , then when you throttle on the cam angle has to jump to 20~30 so fast. that type of steep just should be avoided, level the cam angle or have a less incline.