how to: heel toe downshifting

[Danman281]

I do this all by habit now, its awesome. When you rev match just right, the clutch falls in soooo smoothly

[benkieboy]

People brake on turns???

I just down shift into second and slowly let off the clutch.... that slows the car down pretty steadily, then I let go of clutch cpmpletely.... it take me through the turn... and then I accelerate. That seems like so much work for no apparent reason.

Down shift before the turn, and slam the pedal on at the apex and your set!

i think if it's not possible to just downshift without rev-matching since your speed is for a high rev. if you dont rev-match, gear would not go in.

and correct me if i am wrong but i guess you have to keep the tire spinning to keep the traction hence the heel-toe. it keeps the momentum alive inspite of the turn.

[RedSiBaron]

i think whenever i get my pedal set, ill offset the gas and brake so they are a little closer to each other.

awesome, post up pics when you modify that shit!!

i rev match on all my downshifts but i don't brake and downshift at the same.

well, you would downshift while braking when you come into a corner deep and late brake, so youd be accelerating up to the corner and you wait wait wait until you hit the braking zone, brake in hard and while setting into the corner downshift through to the proper gear for the corner, take your set then get into the throttle at the earliest time to make the corner and zoom your away...

thank you, sir.

hey i helped

haha but seriously, great post mugsy sir...i havnt had such a good time in a thread in a while

[MugsyTheGr8]

hey i helped

haha but seriously, great post mugsy sir...i havnt had such a good time in a thread in a while

your very knowledgeable on the subject. i learned just as much from your post as i did from the edmunds article

[MugsyTheGr8]

gary sheehan making it look easy
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/H...hing_57431.htm

another vid of heel toe in practice
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/H...-demo_8398.htm

[RedSiBaron]

haha well all this started the day i learned to drive stick...my father took me out in my 86si after i finished getting it on the road at 15 and after i started doing pretty well that first day he stopped and he took over, took me through a section of about 12 corners in a road through some hills near our house, and then has me look at his left foot...he wasnt using hte clutch...so he then proceeded to explaining ALL OF THIS...so i just practiced it and freaked him out one day when i think i was 17 that i had apparently been double clutching and rev matching for over a year haha...

its been a blast practicing it over hte years, couldnt get my friend to try and learn it in his e36 m-technic...he couldnt shift for shit...or drive for shit...beat him off the line with the ep consistently (every time) with just bridgestone potenza g009s and koni shocks and tein springs, i may have had my intake dont remember...but that was it...

[benkieboy]

great story! very inspiring! makes me wanna master heel-toeing. i'll practice this tomorrow the whole day!

[Godhand]

...on the ep, you physically cant put your foot sideways, well, unless you have tiny feet...

This is my first manual, so I learned to heel-toe with it and found it easy to have my foot sideways, and I wear 13s. But then again, the only stick I've driven since then is my friend's mr2.

One reason why I wanted a Civic was for left-foot breaking. I consider that a major skill and practice it alot. It's like fine-tuning your drifting skills in a 240sx. With enough skill, a FWD can keep up.

[RedSiBaron]

This is my first manual, so I learned to heel-toe with it and found it easy to have my foot sideways, and I wear 13s. But then again, the only stick I've driven since then is my friend's mr2.

One reason why I wanted a Civic was for left-foot breaking. I consider that a major skill and practice it alot. It's like fine-tuning your drifting skills in a 240sx. With enough skill, a FWD can keep up.

haha good plan, i have to force myself to start practicing left foot breaking but i just havnt the heart to start...haha

but yah you can get your foot sideways, but you cant put it AS sideways...but it all doesnt matter as long as you can get that blip...

[musashi1219]

I am no expert but I have some options for you guys

1. Don't look for exact revs when you are adding throttle before the downshift. Keep your eyes off of the tach and on the road. Do it by sound. I add a BIG rev giving me plenty of time to make sure I have everything the way I want it. In vettes I go with a quick blip to 6.5k and in the honda I am usually a thousand higher than that. Again all this is to give me plenty of time to get everything done.

2. Take the car out of gear... PAUSE in neutral ... enter new gear. if the car jumps you let off too soon. if it lags you let off too slow

3. Practice in a safe area in a straight line. Improper downshifting in a corner can cause you to spin out and kill yourself or others. It might take you days and you should really do it with someone who actually knows what they are doing. Practicing it incorrectly will build bad habits that will make it twice as hard for you to learn the correct way.



A lot of you guys might say that pausing in neutral is slower than going straight from one gear to another... the pause gives you options for the only two mistakes you can make...
mistake one I didnt add enough throttle and if I release the clutch the car is going to become unbalanced

mistake two I put the car in the wrong gear and I blew up my tranny because I did not want to use the hundredth of a second to pause and SELECT my gear.

[RedSiBaron]

I am no expert but I have some options for you guys

1. Don't look for exact revs when you are adding throttle before the downshift. Keep your eyes off of the tach and on the road. Do it by sound. I add a BIG rev giving me plenty of time to make sure I have everything the way I want it. In vettes I go with a quick blip to 6.5k and in the honda I am usually a thousand higher than that. Again all this is to give me plenty of time to get everything done.

2. Take the car out of gear... PAUSE in neutral ... enter new gear. if the car jumps you let off too soon. if it lags you let off too slow

3. Practice in a safe area in a straight line. Improper downshifting in a corner can cause you to spin out and kill yourself or others. It might take you days and you should really do it with someone who actually knows what they are doing. Practicing it incorrectly will build bad habits that will make it twice as hard for you to learn the correct way.



A lot of you guys might say that pausing in neutral is slower than going straight from one gear to another... the pause gives you options for the only two mistakes you can make...
mistake one I didnt add enough throttle and if I release the clutch the car is going to become unbalanced

mistake two I put the car in the wrong gear and I blew up my tranny because I did not want to use the hundredth of a second to pause and SELECT my gear.

ooooo excellent points...im terrible at hitting on fine points like this

[musashi1219]

well, you would downshift while braking when you come into a corner deep and late brake, so youd be accelerating up to the corner and you wait wait wait until you hit the braking zone, brake in hard and while setting into the corner downshift through to the proper gear for the corner, take your set then get into the throttle at the earliest time to make the corner and zoom your away...

are you sure you want to teach these guys to bury the car into a corner?

I am pretty sure that any racecar driver will tell you that you never bury a car into a corner unless making an overly aggressive pass. You want to keep the car balanced and banging the brakes is not going to keep the car balanced.
Yes you need to brake in the braking zone but you are no and you make it sound like the downshift should always be done before the corner. Yes the SAFEST place for the downshift is before the turn but what about increasing radius turns or a very long sweepers? The FASTER way is the downshift in the turn but this is not safe unless you are VERY proficient with heel toe.

I have been sent ride several times by "experts" doing this in a sweeper.


btw Red, don't take this as an attack. I am just one of those guys that thinks if you give someone advice it should be the best possible advice and most importantly CORRECT.

[musashi1219]

oh one more thing... everyone is always in a rush to get into gear... remember a blown trans is slower than the next guy who took his time and selected the correct gear.



Off I go... negotiating terms on teaching the ZR-1 introductory class for GM

[RedSiBaron]

are you sure you want to teach these guys to bury the car into a corner?

I am pretty sure that any racecar driver will tell you that you never bury a car into a corner unless making an overly aggressive pass. You want to keep the car balanced and banging the brakes is not going to keep the car balanced.
Yes you need to brake in the braking zone but you are no and you make it sound like the downshift should always be done before the corner. Yes the SAFEST place for the downshift is before the turn but what about increasing radius turns or a very long sweepers? The FASTER way is the downshift in the turn but this is not safe unless you are VERY proficient with heel toe.

I have been sent ride several times by "experts" doing this in a sweeper.


btw Red, don't take this as an attack. I am just one of those guys that thinks if you give someone advice it should be the best possible advice and most importantly CORRECT.

oh im a designer im used to tough love haha

i think we really are on the same page...i have a lot of trouble explaining this shit, its too engrained in my skull...no i was not telling them to totally bury it, or to bang the brakes, balance, finesse and smooth cornering is the only way to drive...and personally i was taught in both kart school and by my father (who is an ex formula ford midwest scca champion) to late brake, if i dont need to late brake im not going to, but ive always been fast as fuck wheel to wheel when late braking...then again im not jumping on the brake, i roll onto it finish my braking before i take a set for the corner take my set and roll into the the throttle...im still not used to the ep after driving my 86si for so long...my 86 was far faster in the corners and wouldnt understeer as bad...:noidea:...as for shifting in the corner, these guys are new to this, so them getting all their work done before the corner is only going to help them at this point...and increasing radius corners are a whole other story

[ts ep3]

nice post im going to have to try this