ABS delete?

[na14yu]

show me testing that proves an ABS equipped car stops sooner than a non abs car and I will tip my hat to you
Car companys testing and companys payed by car companys to prove this regaurdless of the truth dont count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

Look under the section titled "Effectiveness"

Can non-ABS equipped cars stop shorter than ABS equipped cars? Yes in the right circumstances it most definitely can. But generally speaking, if you have a non-ABS equipped car you would have to be spot-on with your threshold braking technique to stop shorter than the same car equipped with ABS.

I don't know about you guys, but the chance of me employing perfect threshold braking at 7am in the morning when I'm driving to work is slim to none, so ABS it is.

[dobbs02si]

I HATE having ABS on my car! I know how to drive and know enough to not slam on the brakes in an emergency. I think it is the dumbest thing to have on a car. For people like me, it makes it harder to stop because pumping the breaks dont slow ya down. Instead were forced to drive like every other tool on the road and slam on the brakes when some jerkoff runs a light.(this happened to me tonight, and I came within an inch of hitting this guy cause I was pumping the breaks) Is there a way to get rid of the ABS? I had to replace an axle on my EJ once(not equiped with ABS) but the axle that I bought had the ABS teeth on the end, the guy in the parts store just snapped it off and it worked fine. Can I do this with the EP axles w/o causing any problems?

If thats the case then YOU had already went beyond the grip of the tires..and abs was helping you because the wheels would have already been locked. So you just contradicted your second sentence. Learn to drive around the abs OR let it help you.

[v1c10us]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

Look under the section titled "Effectiveness"

Can non-ABS equipped cars stop shorter than ABS equipped cars? Yes in the right circumstances it most definitely can. But generally speaking, if you have a non-ABS equipped car you would have to be spot-on with your threshold braking technique to stop shorter than the same car equipped with ABS.

I don't know about you guys, but the chance of me employing perfect threshold braking at 7am in the morning when I'm driving to work is slim to none, so ABS it is.

the lack of citations and general incorrectness of wikipedia isn't gonna work.
I do agree, abs rules, but in a straight line I'd rather skid and put a flat spot in my tire creating even more grip and have it get hot and melty and sticky.

in cornering, going beyond the grip of the tires is a good reference point because its the limit you can take the corner and stay where you want.
But when it in reference to braking its a different story

abs is something we're stuck with because average drivers freak out when the car starts sliding and because it makes your tires last long, bald spots arent good for the tires.
Combine that with the increased heat and your tires dont last as long.
This coorelates to the same reason used slicks dont grip as good as new ones.
The thin tread deforms less and generates less heat, so it cant grip as well as a thick treaded tire deforming, generating heat.
edit: some content removed for incorrectness

[drjd888]

ABS is there to make it safer when braking, so you have more control. It doesn't really hinder braking distance so why get rid of it? If you were taught to pump your brakes and your name doesn't come up on the SPEED channel then I think its time to learn to drive with ABS. Just my $0.02

[!@#$%]

the lack of citations and general incorrectness of wikipedia isn't gonna work.
I do agree, abs rules, but in a straight line I'd rather skid and put a flat spot in my tire creating even more grip and have it get hot and melty and sticky.

in cornering, going beyond the grip of the tires is a good reference point because its the limit you can take the corner and stay where you want.
But when it in reference to braking its a different story

abs is something we're stuck with because average drivers freak out when the car starts sliding and because it makes your tires last long, bald spots arent good for the tires.
Combine that with the increased heat and your tires dont last as long.
This coorelates to the same reason used slicks dont grip as good as new ones.
The thin tread deforms less and generates less heat, so it cant grip as well as a thick treaded tire deforming, generating heat.
edit: some content removed for incorrectness

How about you show us a source where it says non abs cars will always stop faster than abs equipped vehicles? I guess my source wasn't good enough.

[civictype_r04]

Hope you don't lan on getting in a accident man. If you do and your insuranse or the other persons insurance dose you'll be F@#K'ed man. They consider it your fault for tampering with the way the car came. Don't do it IMO!

[musashi1219]

Time for a speech

what is good about ABS

well lets brake it down. A (allows) B (Braking) and S (steering)
No matter how hard you push the brake pedal you will be able to steer the car. That is a good thing

If the car is experiencing two or more different levels of traction you will still be able to stop safely. ie loose gravel or debris on one side of car and clean pavement on other side

It is idiot proof, you squeeze the pedal and do not have to worry about lock up.


So lets say you are driving down the road and you need to make an emergency stop. No big deal. you slam on the brakes hope that your morning coffee does not spill. You safely stopped and did not hit the deer or kid in the road. You take a deep breath hit your wipers because the puddle on the side of the road splashed water on your windshield. Damn, you jsut washed your car too. Oh well you can wipe the water off of the passenger side after work.

Let's explorer the same situation without ABS

You slam on the brakes, the water splashes up on the passenger side. Oh shit you never even noticed the puddle along the right side of the lane. The car goes into a violent spin because of the effects of split coefficient. Now you do one of two things. The car has made a 45 degree rotation in less than 2 tenths of a second.


1. You get off of the brakes and attempt to steer out of it. The car is already rotated 45 degrees too late for you jack. I don't care how good of a driver you think you are. You WILL NOT get the car under control in time to avoid whatever it was you were maneuvering around.

or 2. You stay locked on the brakes and depending on speed you stop after the car does a few more spins or you are stopped by an outside force. Ie another car, guard rail, or the like.




Does ABS stop you sooner? For most people in most situations in most cars yes it does.

Does abs stop you shorter in a 96 impala with police package? I can attest to the fact that if you have totally mastered threshold braking it will not. There are several canadian police officers that can attest to this. They are a few dollars light in their pockets thanks to some detroit cops.

ABS has come a long way from its inception. I cannot speak for the EP-3 as I have never done any testing. i have run the car with and without ABS and have had no issues either way. I have also not had a serious panic incident either. In rain or snow I would like to have the ABS just in case. On dry ground and a CLEAN road, I can live without it. I say this because for the better part of the year I teach how to deal with ABS failures in corvettes and other high performance vehicles. I have more seat time going fast and stopping fast without ABS than probably anyone here. On ANYTHING less than ideal road conditions it is ALMOST always better to have ABS. If you are not a TRAINED professional, I would not count on your driving ability to save you.


Unless you have done 30 or more non abs braking collision avoidance maneuvers I would not drive without ABS and even then, I would not trust you to drive my kids in a non-abs car.



Let's be honest, we all think we are better drivers than we really are. We cannot account for other drivers, unknown road conditions and the weather. Equipment failure, the gf screaming and the kids throwing their dirty diaper at you when the shit hits the fan.



Ok I am shutting up no until someone inevitably says something stupid... so that means I will be posting again in less than five minutes

[musashi1219]

The odds of you being able to stop quicker in a car without abs compared to one equipped is very slim.

QFT

ABS increases your braking distance, so its actually very likely.
Of course this is assuming a comparison in a straight line braking test where the non abs car does not pump the brakes.

how are you going to keep the car going straight if the vehicle starts to rotate? this can be caused by uneven road surface. One wheel locking up before the other, wet pavement, poor tire(s) bad alignment... the list of things goes on and on. Unless you drive a brand new problem free car every single time you cannot be certain. Plus what about the guy tailgating you. You will not be able to turn and avoid getting hit by him because now that you have lost rolling friction you will NOT be able to steer the car AT ALL. Testing is CUTE but it is not real world.

3. Adequate braking is easy to achieve on dry roads with or without antilock brakes. Even if wheels lock, the coefficient of friction between tires and road surface still is relatively high, so a vehicle stops relatively quickly. It is even possible on some surfaces to stop sooner without antilocks than with them, although such instances are rare. They occur, for example, when loosely packed snow or gravel creates a "dam" effect in front of locked wheels, shortening the stopping distance more than antilocks could.

http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/antilock.html

Yes but again you cannot steer! Also, do you have enough time to get out and check to see if the snow or gravel is loosely packed? Can you go 300 feet ahead and see if there is ice on the road? Oh wait, you are in a moving car!

ABS does not increase your stoping distance nor does it make you stop sooner, all abs does is eliminate the brakes from locking thusly giving you more control to steer the car out of the way.

Yes and no. Does it increase you stopping distance when compared to a perfect driver on a perfect road? yes a little bit. Is there a perfect driver? No.

Why are you yourself pumping the brakes with your ABS? That doesn't make any sense? The ABS is pumping it for you...so you shouldn't have to pump...

Improper application of any braking system ABS or non has always been an issue for drivers/ car manufacturers hence the development of modern braking systems and stability control.

that may be so, but tests have also shown that 2 people slamming on the brakes, one with ABS and one without, the non ABS car will have a shorter braking distance. The sliding tire builds up heat and gets more grip than the abs equipped car and it stops sooner. The difference occurs when someone needs to turn when sliding or something like that.

And we all know that we have plenty of time to stop and we never need to turn to avoid anything in an emergency. And again the test drivers were TRAINED professionals.

show me testing that proves an ABS equipped car stops sooner than a non abs car and I will tip my hat to you
Car companys testing and companys payed by car companys to prove this regaurdless of the truth dont count.

Get me two similar cars and an average driver it will work every time!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

Look under the section titled "Effectiveness"

Can non-ABS equipped cars stop shorter than ABS equipped cars? Yes in the right circumstances it most definitely can. But generally speaking, if you have a non-ABS equipped car you would have to be spot-on with your threshold braking technique to stop shorter than the same car equipped with ABS.

I don't know about you guys, but the chance of me employing perfect threshold braking at 7am in the morning when I'm driving to work is slim to none, so ABS it is.

QFT

ABS is there to make it safer when braking, so you have more control. It doesn't really hinder braking distance so why get rid of it? If you were taught to pump your brakes and your name doesn't come up on the SPEED channel then I think its time to learn to drive with ABS. Just my $0.02

QFT

[classiccelica]

I am sorry but pumping the brakes the way you were taught does not increase you stopping distances either. Pumping the brakes was according to dmv hand book back in the day was to prepare the drivers behind you that you are trying to stop. I have a 1973 Toyota celica that if you pump the brakes does absolutly nothing to stop you sooner or even better than hitting the brakes without locking them. If I could put abs on that car without costing an arm and a leg then I would. I would rather save my classic by being in control while in a panic stop then slamming her into the back of some other person.

[musashi1219]

I am sorry but pumping the brakes the way you were taught does not increase you stopping distances either. Pumping the brakes was according to dmv hand book back in the day was to prepare the drivers behind you that you are trying to stop. I have a 1973 Toyota celica that if you pump the brakes does absolutly nothing to stop you sooner or even better than hitting the brakes without locking them. If I could put abs on that car without costing an arm and a leg then I would. I would rather save my classic by being in control while in a panic stop then slamming her into the back of some other person.

I am not sure who you are talking to when you said this but can you please think about what you said.

pumping your brakes does not increase your stopping distance? SO once you put your foot on the pedal and then take it off the rate of deceleration does not change? Seriously re-read what you said.

There are a lot of reasons given for pumping brakes. Originally it was to pressurize the system other reasons... to warn the driver behind you, to keep the car from hydroplaning, and to keep the wheels from locking up.

If you decide to pump your brakes and I am driving behind you, I am going to be very sad when you decide to warn me by pumping your brakes and you end up in the back seat of the vehicle in front of you... but wait i forgot, pumping the brakes does not increase your stopping distance.


I also am not sure if we are all on the same page when we are saying pumping the brakes. I am sure everyone means cadence braking which is a series of fast and short wheel lock ups.

[v1c10us]

QFT

how are you going to keep the car going straight if the vehicle starts to rotate? this can be caused by uneven road surface. One wheel locking up before the other, wet pavement, poor tire(s) bad alignment... the list of things goes on and on. Unless you drive a brand new problem free car every single time you cannot be certain. Plus what about the guy tailgating you. You will not be able to turn and avoid getting hit by him because now that you have lost rolling friction you will NOT be able to steer the car AT ALL. Testing is CUTE but it is not real world.



Yes but again you cannot steer! Also, do you have enough time to get out and check to see if the snow or gravel is loosely packed? Can you go 300 feet ahead and see if there is ice on the road? Oh wait, you are in a moving car!

Yes and no. Does it increase you stopping distance when compared to a perfect driver on a perfect road? yes a little bit. Is there a perfect driver? No.

Improper application of any braking system ABS or non has always been an issue for drivers/ car manufacturers hence the development of modern braking systems and stability control.

And we all know that we have plenty of time to stop and we never need to turn to avoid anything in an emergency. And again the test drivers were TRAINED professionals.

Get me two similar cars and an average driver it will work every time!



QFT

QFT

you guys are obviously taking what im saying way too far
average driver trained driver whatever, any numbskull can lock up the brakes in an identical car without abs and stop sooner than another numbskull in the identical car with ABS.
The reason i said ABS is good is because of all those little things you mentioned. My point and the point i've been argueing this entire time is that in a straightline in a test or whatever scenario you want that doesnt involve any other complications the abs increases your stopping distance.
ABS is great, dont get me wrong, im not arguing with that.
I'm just saying it increases braking distance.

drivers have nothing to do with it, get me 2 similiar cars and 2 idiots and a smooth straight road and every time the ABS equipped car stops 20+ feet later. I'm not talking about one guy pumping the brakes or balancing right at the threshold, I'm talking about smokey ass locking up your brakes

[musashi1219]

drivers have nothing to do with it, get me 2 similiar cars and 2 idiots and a smooth straight road and every time the ABS equipped car stops 20+ feet later. I'm not talking about one guy pumping the brakes or balancing right at the threshold, I'm talking about smokey ass locking up your brakes

what road surface? Every surface has a different reaction to outside stimuli. To make that overly generalized statement is not a good idea. I am almost certain you have not tested your theory on every single road surface nor are you equipped with the proper instruments to do truly comparative testing. When you brake like you are saying you are putting all of the weight of the car to the front and the front brakes are taking up all of the work. Two wheels doing all of the braking no matter how you do it is going to take more distance than 4 wheels braking.

And to argue your point is futile. It is not real world as there is no time you are going to be involved in a perfect accident, because if it was perfect there would be no accident.

[v1c10us]

what road surface? Every surface has a different reaction to outside stimuli. To make that overly generalized statement is not a good idea. I am almost certain you have not tested your theory on every single road surface nor are you equipped with the proper instruments to do truly comparative testing. When you brake like you are saying you are putting all of the weight of the car to the front and the front brakes are taking up all of the work. Two wheels doing all of the braking no matter how you do it is going to take more distance than 4 wheels braking.

And to argue your point is futile. It is not real world as there is no time you are going to be involved in a perfect accident, because if it was perfect there would be no accident.

you are arguing over the details.
1st off, abs has zero affect on brake bias, and to say that ABS prevents all of the weight to go to the front wheels is also saying that they arent working.
second I'm not talking about the road, sure, gravel, rain, weird bumps, pot holes, etc etc, can make a difference but I'm talking about just a fucking road without any of these contingencies you keep throwing into the mix.
Also this is not my "theory" its an obvious fact.
In order for your tires to not slide less pressure must be applied to them, and since you cant do that via removing momentum from the car, you have to do it by relieving brake pressure which means there are less things at work trying to slow down the car.

I am in no way trying to disprove what you are saying about ABS in certain situations but its irrefutable that locking up your tires on a road lacking all the shit that can fuck it up that you keep dwelling on will stop the car sooner.
I'm done with this thread and if you want to continue harping on the exact same shit you've said in the last 3 posts be my guest, but I'm tired of hearing you say the same thing.

[powdbyrice]

so a tire skidding down the road, will have more stopping power than an abs equiped tire that keeps its contact patch on the ground the whole time?

[k20si02]

im not trying to sound rude or anything, but why would you pump the brakes with a car equiped with ABS? wouldn't that defeat the purpose? i was taught that if you do have abs then not to pump the brakes just let them do their job. so if i was taught right then it was no wonder you couldn't stop in time you were fighting the ABS. correct me if im wrong but i have never had a problem stopping