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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slip_Angle View Post
    Pennzoil Platinum has great oil analysis reviews on BITOG. Also, these claims of 5w-20 not providing sufficient lubrication or protection are bunk. Go over to Bob's the oil guy and read the FAQ. Very informative and dispels many myths.

    Slip_Angle, I agree w/u WRT PP; excellent product. But we part ways WRT your comment about "claims of 5W-20 not providing sufficient lubrication or protection are bunk." 5W-20 may provide adequate lubrication in 99.9% of HMC's engines these days, but the vast majority of those engines seldom, if ever, experience high rpm use, and for those that do HMC still recommends 5W-30 (or 5W-40) weight oil. Why do you think that is?

    Can you get away with 5W-20 in an EP3 engine? Obviously. You apparently run the stuff, so that's one example. But those of us who opt for 5W-30 weight oil know the additional HT/HS film strength (cSt @ 100c) will never harm a K20A3 engine and it just might be a crucial factor in preventing camshaft galling.
    Last edited by Mechanic; 03-21-2011 at 02:32 AM.

  2. #32
    nothing to see here Slip_Angle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
    Slip_Angle, I agree w/u WRT PP; excellent product. But we part ways WRT your comment about "claims of 5W-20 not providing sufficient lubrication or protection are bunk." 5W-20 may provide adequate lubrication in 99.9% of HMC's engines these days, but the vast majority of those engines seldom, if ever, experience high rpm use, and for those that do HMC still recommends 5W-30 (or 5W-40) weight oil. Why do you think that is?

    Can you get away with 5W-20 in an EP3 engine? Obviously. You apparently run the stuff, so that's one example. But those of us who opt for 5W-30 weight oil know the additional HT/HS film strength (cSt @ 100c) will never harm a K20A3 engine and it just might be a crucial factor in preventing camshaft galling.
    Ok, my use of the word bunk may have been a bit strong but once I read through the BITOG FAQ it opened my eyes to some mis-conceptions I had. A few key pieces of information I read. I don't consider a 5W30 that much thicker than a 5W20. I'm talking about the 15W40-20W50 range as thicker.

    1. 90% of engine wear is at startup.
    2. Most of todays engine blocks run at 212F (ideally) and require a viscosity of 10cS. Thicker oils are at ~20cS at 212F.
    3. The thicker the oil, the more wear at startup - Thicker oils are above 250cS at startup vs ~100cS for a thinner oil. Synthetics are ~40 (5W30)
    4. At very high engine temperatures (302F), thinner oils drop from ~ 10cS to ~3cS. Thicker oils go from ~20cS to ~4cS - they provide no better protection.
    5. Thinner grade oils have better flow and thus better cooling. Cooler engines wear less (212F vs 302F)

    The cam galling was most likely due to manufacturing inconsistencies or possibly LTO. I have read this concept of Low Traction Oil that may cause accelerated galling but it is not related to thinner oils and is dependent on engine design.

    I have a K24a2 and use 5W30 PP Full Synthetic.
    Last edited by Slip_Angle; 03-25-2011 at 09:31 PM.

  3. #33
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    What?! "Low Traction Oil"?

    Slip_Angle, your response doesn't even rise to the level of junk science.

  4. #34
    Registered EP3 User CivicSier's Avatar
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    I went with Pennzoil platinum 5w-20, So far so good I definitely felt a difference between Reg and syn. It's still cold here in Philadelphia so when summer rolls around I may go up to 30.
    Thanks every one for your input.

  5. #35
    CL9 Time! POOPTOOTH's Avatar
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    AkA EX FULL-RACE EP3

  6. #36
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ talonXracer's Avatar
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    There is so much misinformation, conjecture and pure BS on BITOG that it isnt even laughable, LOL

    I could care less about all these hypothetical wear #'s and armchair theatrics. 30+ years of wrenching and machine shop experience is what I go by, ie that is reality to all you youngins and your tech. When you see trends develop due to the type and weights of oil used and their corresponding damage, that is what I go by, not some individual posting theories and conjecture based upon a bong induced fuge over on BITOG.

    5w20/0w20 = disaster
    ALL advice issued with this "Disclaimer"
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  7. #37
    Bonnie...real OG RedSiBaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by talonXracer View Post
    There is so much misinformation, conjecture and pure BS on BITOG that it isnt even laughable, LOL

    I could care less about all these hypothetical wear #'s and armchair theatrics. 30+ years of wrenching and machine shop experience is what I go by, ie that is reality to all you youngins and your tech. When you see trends develop due to the type and weights of oil used and their corresponding damage, that is what I go by, not some individual posting theories and conjecture based upon a bong induced fuge over on BITOG.

    5w20/0w20 = disaster
    this is why i keep my old man around, he has experience back to the 50s, if it can happen hes seen it in context...

    like the quote in my sig says, which is my fathers quote by the way, you talk shop all you want and give me numbers and theories, but where the rubber meets the road is where we'll get our actual numbers...

    when i bought my ep, i pulled the VC at my first oil change after finding out about the gauling issue...i found that i had indication of abnormal wear starting on the lobes...i switched to 5w30 RP, and later redline and since then the wear issue has stopped and the wear is even and shiny, not gauled, pitted, or grooved...
    my ep is white...

    - We can talk numbers all you want, but the bullshit stops when the flag drops...

  8. #38
    nothing to see here Slip_Angle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
    What?! "Low Traction Oil"?

    Slip_Angle, your response doesn't even rise to the level of junk science.
    Really? Valvoline and you disagree then. Here is my source -- a company that makes oil. Go ahead, educate yourself then we can discuss like adults.

    http://www.valvoline-technology.com/...%20Galling.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by talonXracer View Post
    There is so much misinformation, conjecture and pure BS on BITOG that it isnt even laughable, LOL

    I could care less about all these hypothetical wear #'s and armchair theatrics. 30+ years of wrenching and machine shop experience is what I go by, ie that is reality to all you youngins and your tech. When you see trends develop due to the type and weights of oil used and their corresponding damage, that is what I go by, not some individual posting theories and conjecture based upon a bong induced fuge over on BITOG.

    5w20/0w20 = disaster
    Talon... come on. I don't disagree experience is important but disputing the FAQ on BITOG that is made up from years of experience and research? Tell me your not stuck in your ways and can't learn more??

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/

  9. #39
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ talonXracer's Avatar
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    There are far TOO MANY industry pundits on that site to wade thru all their BS. When real world machinists and mechanics come to different conclusions than what the BITOG's finest oil industry experts do, I will go with the guys in the trenchs rather than the lab coat guys everytime....... some of the info is good, but far too much plagerisim of corporate talking points to be taken serious, take for instance, "low traction oil", a corporate derived term to push their oil.
    ALL advice issued with this "Disclaimer"
    Tim "the Toolman" Taylor is my HERO ! ! !

    "Labor Unions are Domestic Terrorist orgainizations"

  10. #40
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    Slip_Angle, I can't believe I'm going to waste time responding to your post.

    First, focus! This thread began with a comparison of 5W-20 weight motor oil with 5W-30 weight motor oil. Why you decided that 15W-40 or 20W-50 weight oils were somehow relevant here, I have no idea. Do you?

    WRT to your "low traction oil" argument, I take it you believe that a 2001 SAE paper regarding cam galling in heavy duty diesel engines supports your original comment that "[t]hese claims of 5W-20 not providing sufficient lubrication or protection are bunk"? You see a relationship here, do you? You really believe that SAE paper somehow relates to the camshaft design in HMC's K-series gasoline engines? Does the term "non sequitur" mean anything to you? More to the point, sir, can you cite any authority for your argument (other than a vague link to bobistheoilguy.com.)? I know Bob's site well. I'd like to read the link on Bob's that you believe is on point to this discussion.

    And while you are at it, please provide a citation of authority for your statement that "[m]ost of today's engine blocks run at 212F (ideally) and require a viscosity of 10cS." (Emphasis added.) That certainly will come as news to the Honda Motor Company, XOM, BP, RDS, COP, etc. (And I realize it's petty to point this out, sir, but the correct abbreviation for centiStokes -- you did know it's centistokes, right? -- is cSt, not cS.) The weight oil I recommended, 5W-30, has a cSt range of 10.7-11.3 at 100c. The 5W-20 you originally held out as "sufficient" typically has a cSt of 8.4 at the same temperature. Want to re-think your gibberish about engine blocks requiring a viscosity of "10cS" (sic)?

    And while we are on the subject of oil temperature, the number I cited, 100 degrees Celcius, is the industry standard for oil viscosity product data sheets (PDSs). (Doubt that? You can go to XOM's webpage and check it out.) I have no idea what point you were attempting to make WRT your comments about oil temperatures in excess of 300 degrees Fahrenheit -- which you threw in out of the blue -- but I'm guessing you thought that non sequitur was somehow relevent to the discussion of 5W-30? (If your point was that you can fry conventional motor oil at 300F, you won't get an argument from me.)

    WRT your comment that "[you] don't consider 5W30 that much thicker than a 5W20," for your edification Mobil Super 5000 5W-20 (a conventional oil I picked at random) has a cSt of 8.4 at 100c. MS5k 5W-30 has a cSt of 10.7 at 100c. That's about a 13% difference. Mobil 1 5W-30 has an even greater difference: cSt of 11.3 at the same temperature. These percentage differences are hardly insignificant. They are precisely the differences that HMC is trying to eliminate in its quest for ultra high fuel mileage.

    Finally, just for the hell of it, I'd like to read your citation of authority for your insightful comment that "[t]he cam galling was most likely due to manufacturing inconsistencies." That sounds like a guess to me -- like damn near everything else you wrote. Your self-study has failed you.

  11. #41
    nothing to see here Slip_Angle's Avatar
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    Congratulations, you now have some skin in the game. I guess you decided you must respond now since you're looking a bit silly calling me out on the LTO stuff that you never heard of... ;)

    A couple of things.

    #1 -- I make NO claims to be an oil expert and only write based on what I read on reputable sites.

    #2 -- I have no issue with being wrong but you need to provide reasonable arguments.

    Now, to your points.

    My comparison with thicker oils was simply an illustration to show thicker is not better, in fact it's worse. Not comparing 5w20 to 5w30 - they are too close.

    My point regarding the cam galling is that it is more likely there was material issues with manufacturing or possibly something else related to oil but NOT that a thinner oil was the cause.. I read a fairly well written article to support my theories -- more than anyone else provided! Thought that was clear but I guess not - no harm, no foul.

    212f vs 100c -- OK, this made me laugh a bit. I have no argument with you since they are the same temperature. 100 Celsius = 212 Fahrenheit.

    10cS. If you take time to read the BITOG FAQ, it makes multiple references to oils optimum temperature and viscosity being 10cS at 212F/100C.

    The info about 302F is a reference to heat and it causing oil to lose it's viscosity. If the oil protects best at a viscosity of 10cS but excessive heat causes the oil to lose it's viscosity, then the oil is not doing it's job. The BITOG FAQ says that thinner oils protect just as well at higher temperatures as thicker oils.

    Viscosity or Centistokes can be referenced as cS or cSt. BITOG uses cS. Is this really a big deal?

    My references..

    http://www.convertworld.com/en/kinem...ntistokes.html

    http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english/co...42350-cst.html

    So ultimately, your post seems like an attempt to discredit the information I've provided and make it look like I have no idea what I'm talking about...but in fact none of this information is mine - It's all from reputable sites. You ask for all of my references, which I provide but you provide none of your own.

    I have no proof at all that the cam galling was caused by bad manufacturing but it certainly is plausible no? I would think that if 5w20 motor oil caused problems with Honda motors, they would have stopped using it -- but the opposite is true -- they use it more than ever.

    Honda recommends 5W20 oil for their vehicles -- don't you think they know what they're talking about?

    ...and what's up with the Latin?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slip_Angle View Post

    #1 -- I make NO claims to be an oil expert and only write based on what I read on reputable sites.

    So ultimately, your post seems like an attempt to discredit the information I've provided and make it look like I have no idea what I'm talking about...
    Work on that reading comprehension.

    And, my post wasn't an attempt to discredit what you wrote. We're long past that, Sunshine.

  13. #43
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ talonXracer's Avatar
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    LOL, seldom does lab results mimic real life results. The figures and numbers provided by the industry are VERY suspect to begin with, That is like taking a drug companies word their poison is safe to take without any research on your part!!! LOL


    Honda's very own publications reveal the whys and how of the 5w20 oil recommendation on the EP3's A3. You need to wrap your braincells around the fact that Honda only lowered the oil specs on the a3 to raise the MPG and lower emissions to help theri ENTIRE fleet MPG and emissions ratings to lower tarrifs and fines. The tariff/fine cost vrs warranty repairs for oil related issues are the core issues, it costs less to replace a few engines than pay millions in fines and tariffs.

    Every Stealership within 200 miles of me stopped recommending the 5w20 swill due to the excessively high oil related warranty claims, when they stopped pushing the 5w20 swill, their claims dropped down to almost ZERO. !!!!


    xw20 and 0w oils are the new Koolaid drinks for the "E" generation !!!
    Last edited by talonXracer; 03-28-2011 at 06:41 AM.
    ALL advice issued with this "Disclaimer"
    Tim "the Toolman" Taylor is my HERO ! ! !

    "Labor Unions are Domestic Terrorist orgainizations"

  14. #44
    nothing to see here Slip_Angle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
    Work on that reading comprehension.

    And, my post wasn't an attempt to discredit what you wrote. We're long past that, Sunshine.
    Is that it? That's all you got? You jumped on each of my posts, pointing out items you felt were either completely mis-informed or beneath your level of God like brilliance... Only to be proven wrong and that was your response?

    Well done.

    Quote Originally Posted by talonXracer View Post
    Honda's very own publications reveal the whys and how of the 5w20 oil recommendation on the EP3's A3. You need to wrap your braincells around the fact that Honda only lowered the oil specs on the a3 to raise the MPG and lower emissions to help theri ENTIRE fleet MPG and emissions ratings to lower tarrifs and fines. The tariff/fine cost vrs warranty repairs for oil related issues are the core issues, it costs less to replace a few engines than pay millions in fines and tariffs.

    Every Stealership within 200 miles of me stopped recommending the 5w20 swill due to the excessively high oil related warranty claims, when they stopped pushing the 5w20 swill, their claims dropped down to almost ZERO. !!!!


    xw20 and 0w oils are the new Koolaid drinks for the "E" generation !!!
    Why Honda did it is irrelevant. The company that makes the most and arguably best engines in the world is not going to sacrifice their reputation to reach emissions standards they already meet. Fact is, Honda still recommends 0w20 and 5w20 for their cars....which means dealers are using it.

    You got a source for this 0 claim, no 5w20 recommendation? I bet if I call any of these dealerships in your area, they'll recommend exactly what Honda says should be put in their motors -- 5w20.

    Source...

    http://www.honda.ca/parts-accessorie...oil-and-fluids

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