Suspension goals and confusion

[polymorphic]

I've been heavily researching for weeks as to what type of suspension I need for my '05. Every time I think I've found what I need, I find some thread which changes my mind. Good lord, what do I buy? I am not a tuner and have no tools in my garage aside from a hammer and screwdriver, so I don't have the ability to adjust anything on my car. I don't know anyone who works on cars, so I need something that is installed and done.

My goals for my dd are maximum handling/performance, easy on the tire wear. I don't care about harshness of the ride. I actually prefer it bumpy and bouncy and would like it much firmer than the stock suspension. I'd prefer the car to have little to no body roll when coming to a quick stop or launching. I don't care about adjustability as I don't auto-x or anything. I'd like it lowered about 2 inches, but keep reading that any more than a 1 inch drop on the ep3 negatively affects handling. I don't want it slammed, just a lower, more aggressive stance.

So springs sound like what I need, but forum after forum suggest coilovers if you can afford it, which I can. Some forums say coilovers are a bad choice because performance suffers and springs are all you need. I can't find the HFP suspension, which is what I would like due to it's bolt-on-ness. Passed up the HFP new on ebay for $400 back in '08 or so... still kicking myself for that. I'm so confused.

[hyu]

Bouncy = bad.
If you buy struts/coilover ep3 specific it should bolt right up. Get some strut bars to stiffen up your chassis. (fairly cheap)

[polymorphic]

Why is bouncy bad? I like feeling the road. The strut bar looks pretty nifty. Never heard of those.

[hyu]

Bouncy = blown

[PatrickJamesYu]

Why is bouncy bad? I like feeling the road. The strut bar looks pretty nifty. Never heard of those.

there's bouncy and bumpy
Bouncy is like blown shocks, and where you see those 90's honda's on the freeway bouncing all over the place
You generally always want to stay away from that.

If you want a stiffer ride, almost every coilover system will give you that.

[Andrew]

I've been heavily researching for weeks as to what type of suspension I need for my '05. Every time I think I've found what I need, I find some thread which changes my mind. Good lord, what do I buy? I am not a tuner and have no tools in my garage aside from a hammer and screwdriver, so I don't have the ability to adjust anything on my car. I don't know anyone who works on cars, so I need something that is installed and done.

My goals for my dd are maximum handling/performance, easy on the tire wear. I don't care about harshness of the ride. I actually prefer it bumpy and bouncy and would like it much firmer than the stock suspension. I'd prefer the car to have little to no body roll when coming to a quick stop or launching. I don't care about adjustability as I don't auto-x or anything. I'd like it lowered about 2 inches, but keep reading that any more than a 1 inch drop on the ep3 negatively affects handling. I don't want it slammed, just a lower, more aggressive stance.

So springs sound like what I need, but forum after forum suggest coilovers if you can afford it, which I can. Some forums say coilovers are a bad choice because performance suffers and springs are all you need. I can't find the HFP suspension, which is what I would like due to it's bolt-on-ness. Passed up the HFP new on ebay for $400 back in '08 or so... still kicking myself for that. I'm so confused.

if you cant find an HFP suspension then cop a RSX-S aspec suspension and you'll be good to go, but those suspension set ups will only lower the car a little bit. as for lowering your car about 2 inches or less/more i would go with either any coilover set under $1000 mark as it is your DD or go with what redsibaron is riding on (i think progress springs and koni shocks). although you do not need to get the koni shocks you can either go for like tokico blues or the black ones or any other shock to save some money

[Zzyzx]

Ah chassis bracing, so much time and money in to something that has such little returns.

Why is bouncy bad? I like feeling the road.

Feeling connected to the road is one thing, overly stiffening the suspension because of a preconceived notion is another. Remember this, for best handling you want the softest suspension that you can get away with. The "that you can get away with" is the tricky part.

Why is a softer suspension better? Because the roads you drive on are not glass smooth. Quick experiment; Take a ball bearing or similarly hard ball and roll it across some asphalt. Notice how every time it impacts an irregularity it hops off the surface? Now take a softer ball and do the same; notice how it absorbs those regularities and stays in contact with the surface its rolling on more? What that experiment showed is what the suspension tuning world calls "Suspension Frequencies".

See there is only one part on the car that can make traction. That part is the tire, it is after all the only thing touching the ground and thus the only thing that can impart force to ground. But it can only do so when it is in contact with the ground. Simply put a tire in the air makes no traction. With that in mind you want a suspension that is compliant enough to keep the tires on the ground as you hit regularities on the road. Overly stiffing the suspension causes the tires to skip over road regularities giving you less overall grip. You will occasionally hear people in the racing world talk about Mechanical grip, this is what they are discussing (suspension frequency).

There are a many things that influence how soft of a suspension you can get away with. Tire choice being the main one though ride height, camber settings & road conditions also play a big part.

So that's why stiffer doesn't mean better handling.

[NEO_FOLLOWER2]

rsx aspec will cost you 750

650 shipped for aspec from curry acura
100 for the tierod ends and bolts and whatnot you need.

there is a diy on here for it.

i have it and its great.

don't get it if you want moar low though.

imo its just enough of a drop. i dont like having to slow down too much for bumps

[USAF EP3]

Ah chassis bracing, so much time and money in to something that has such little returns.



Feeling connected to the road is one thing, overly stiffening the suspension because of a preconceived notion is another. Remember this, for best handling you want the softest suspension that you can get away with. The "that you can get away with" is the tricky part.

Why is a softer suspension better? Because the roads you drive on are not glass smooth. Quick experiment; Take a ball bearing or similarly hard ball and roll it across some asphalt. Notice how every time it impacts an irregularity it hops off the surface? Now take a softer ball and do the same; notice how it absorbs those regularities and stays in contact with the surface its rolling on more? What that experiment showed is what the suspension tuning world calls "Suspension Frequencies".

See there is only one part on the car that can make traction. That part is the tire, it is after all the only thing touching the ground and thus the only thing that can impart force to ground. But it can only do so when it is in contact with the ground. Simply put a tire in the air makes no traction. With that in mind you want a suspension that is compliant enough to keep the tires on the ground as you hit regularities on the road. Overly stiffing the suspension causes the tires to skip over road regularities giving you less overall grip. You will occasionally hear people in the racing world talk about Mechanical grip, this is what they are discussing (suspension frequency).

There are a many things that influence how soft of a suspension you can get away with. Tire choice being the main one though ride height, camber settings & road conditions also play a big part.

So that's why stiffer doesn't mean better handling.

If I was gay, I would only let this man put it in my butt.

[polymorphic]

I'm not gonna argue the whole physics thing, but I always thought (I'm a tech geek, but know nothing of cars) that when you buy a Ferrari you aren't buying a soft, cushy high suspension. You want a low profile with wide tires and rock solid, rigid suspension. That may be comparing apples to oranges, but having soft suspension seems to be the antithesis of performance? For instance a Mustang has mushy suspension and bulbous tires. My friend's '06 GT i drove once was good for a straight, fast jaunt, but handling-wise it sucked.

Another thing is I don't want too low of a drop. And I cannot install anything myself. I would have no clue as to how to put the aspecs on much less how to even get to my current suspension. I have a rottweiler, but don't think she'd know, either. :)

[PatrickJamesYu]

The whole ferrari thing:
That is just an observation made by car people and non car people, pushed to the extreme.

Those car's the Ferrari and the Mustang, are 2 COMPLETELY different car's which you know
But the suspension difference has to do with design
They were designed to do different things, differently.
Also, the car "designer", or manufacturer, for those 2 cars are different people/groups.
Those 2 different persons/groups have different renditions of what "good handling" is.

But to answer more of your question
sure stiff is good, but like zyzzxxz says, there's much more to it.
"stiffer than stock" is more of what the term should really be, and even then, that most definitely does not apply to every car.

a quick analogy more tech related:
I'll use computers since everyone knows computers.

It's kinda like matching RAM and Processor in a computer.
If they don't match either other (able to operate with each other) It's gonna perform like crap.
That's like comparing springs/coilovers to car design.

kinda like how i5 is faster than i7, but i7 is more reliable
(processors)

[Zzyzx]

I'm not gonna argue the whole physics thing, but I always thought (I'm a tech geek, but know nothing of cars) that when you buy a Ferrari you aren't buying a soft, cushy high suspension. You want a low profile with wide tires and rock solid, rigid suspension. That may be comparing apples to oranges, but having soft suspension seems to be the antithesis of performance? For instance a Mustang has mushy suspension and bulbous tires. My friend's '06 GT i drove once was good for a straight, fast jaunt, but handling-wise it sucked.

Another thing is I don't want too low of a drop. And I cannot install anything myself. I would have no clue as to how to put the aspecs on much less how to even get to my current suspension. I have a rottweiler, but don't think she'd know, either. :)

Your using a Falcon to describe why a Pigeon is designed poorly. Different requirements, different design specs to fulfill those requirements, different end product.

Another analogy would be "race cars run stiff suspensions because they have to, street cars that run stiff suspensions do so because of preconceived notions on how a well handling car should feel like from watching race cars."

So, are you trying to get the car to actually handle really well with your intended use, or are you trying to get it to feel the way you think a sports car should feel?

Regardless; remember this list

Things that influence how well a car handles from most influential to least
#1 Driver
#2 Tire
#3 Alignment
#4 Dampers (Shocks)
#5 Springs & anti-roll bar (listed the same as they play off each other, so should be tuned together)
#6 Suspension bushings (they them selves don't do much, but do allow for a more stable alignment)
#7 Chassis bracing (Useful when you are hunting that last tenth)

[polymorphic]

Maybe I should have been more specific, then. I'd like stiffer than stock ep3 specs. Some say the HFP are too stiff. Some say they are stiffer than stock, but handle better. That is what I want. And bouncing... I don't want to bounce, per se. I have decent tires, potenza pole position, so they are pretty nice. I want less body roll. And I guess I'd define 'good handling' for me as being able to take a sharp curve with little roll (strut bars and sway bars primary, good, solid springs/coilovers to assist???), stopping sharply without too much roll (solid, stiff suspension???) and of course good, solid traction which my tires currently have.

I dunno. Like I see some guys rolling around in '90s civics with a quarter inch space between the car and street, bopping wildly over every bump. I don't want that. What do I want? I guess I dunno.

[polymorphic]

Your explanation makes a lot of sense, actually. First, I need a new driver. Just kidding. My alignment is spot on, just had it done. So, I probably want shocks and springs with strut bars as Hyu mentioned? Maybe a 1.25" drop to avoid the camber kit? I can build and tune a bad ass PC. Unfortunately I'm not even sure what tuning a car even means. How do you 'tune' springs and roll bars?

Your using a Falcon to describe why a Pigeon is designed poorly. Different requirements, different design specs to fulfill those requirements, different end product.

Another analogy would be "race cars run stiff suspensions because they have to, street cars that run stiff suppositions do so because of preconceived notions on how a well handling car should feel like from watching race cars."

So, are you trying to get the car to actually handle really well with your intended use, or are you trying to get it to feel the way you think a sports car should feel?

Regardless; remember this list

Things that influence how well a car handles from most influential to least
#1 Driver
#2 Tire
#3 Alignment
#4 Dampers (Shocks)
#5 Springs & anti-roll bar (listed the same as they play off each other, so should be tuned together)
#6 Suspension bushings (they them selves don't do much, but do allow for a more stable alignment)
#7 Chassis bracing (Useful when you are hunting that last tenth)

[Zzyzx]

No worries, the point of forums is to talk things out. And lets face it, there are a lot of wrong information floating around regarding suspension tuning.

If I were starting over I'd be looking for something along these lines.

#1 Good dampers; I'd be very tempted to run Bilsteins though Konis work great too.
#2 Some progressive rated lowering springs that dropped the car to about the ride height I wanted (Progressive means the spring gets stiffer as it compresses vs linear springs which compress at a constant rate) Progress brand springs would not be a bad choice really though Eibach sportlines or H&R sports would be decent as well.
#3 keep the front anti-roll bar stock & look for a reasonably priced ADJUSTIBLE rear anti-roll bar.
#4 Set the front alignment to -1.5 deg camber on the nose -.75 on the rear, keep toe within OEM spec. (camber kits as required)

Parts wise the dampers are by far the most important piece here.