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  1. #31
    GDM Lights Installed Draw7Seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04EP3Hatch View Post
    see this is where i side with gtolio, i beleive it can be done WITH a competent tuner that knows a thing or two about an A3. Is the A3 the runt of the litter? yes, does that mean its garbage.. no. it is to the people that dont have the will to research/try the process to make the power and make it well. Look at me, i am FLIRTING with the disaster 300whp zone, im probably over it on a cold day, and i beat the HELL out of my car, literally just now on the way home from my g/f's i did a pull to 160mph, practiced my launches for when i go to the track, and had some other spirited fun. i do this shit on a regular basis with my car and it keeps coming back for more. but back on topic, gtolio, go for it. like i said i'd attempt 12psi first and go from there, i know you made over 300 by a decent amount and another 2psi will probably yeild you another 30-40 if the setup allows. and make sure the tuner you are using is damn good one and make sure you tell him "listen, were really in uncharted territory here" so he can keep it easy on the advance and go from there, personally invest in some safety mod's, a small water/meth kit, e85 fuel, etc.
    This guy knows. He's the only other one to really WANT the longevity from a 300+ A3 setup.
    -Matt-
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyu View Post
    If I wanted power I would have kept my neon

  2. #32
    Registered User AKEP's Avatar
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    The K-series anything is a good motor, honda really put some effort into it's design. The A3 is no exception. I beat on mine for 105k with stock EVERYTHING minus KPro.

    I'm not sure how much QA went into the A3 assembly when it was at plant, or how much of it is put together by hand, but it's left some people with barely 300hp, or under 350.

    Now when you take in to account that these were probably built with an unopened block, this motor isn't going to make much more power.

    300hp is a lot of good street power too, theres nothing wrong with 300hp, thats enough to spin 3rd on some cheap tires. the 300hp barrier might be a tq problem more than a hp problem. Thats usually the cause of ANY motor explosion not related to detonation.

    The A3 block is great, just needs higher tolerances for everything in it. which is why people opt for a2 internals, at least the crank with forged rods and pistons, oil pump and pan. we already know an A2 can make over 600hp (record right now is somewhere in there) in an unopened block. but if your goal is to not open the a3 and push 350-400hp, good luck.

    For the cost of a k24a1, you are getting 20lbs or so more tq and a higher flowing 2 lobe head and a stronger bottom end that will just about garantee you 500hp unopened. For the price, you just can't beat it. even if you got free a2 internals, working to put those in the a3 vs not touching an a1. It's just easier and more reliable to make power with. You save your turbo by allowing more CFM of flow, which in terms means more power for the same amount of boost. Your turbo wont be spooling its ass off to stuff this air in an engine that wont flow.

    It's up to you. You can do a small build just to make a reliable 300 no bullshit, but why waste your money opening the a3 up when you can just toss in a k24a1 and be even better off.

  3. #33
    AKA Purple94coupe Euro-Yellow-Ep3's Avatar
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    I think with a good tune, you should be able to run 12 psi. keep us updated

  4. #34
    0EM xEcuTi0n Ba82Ep3's Avatar
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    I also agree with AKEP. Ive been down the k24a1 road and it is a hands down better platform to start with. But i also realized the TQ was more than i *needed*.

    The short gear 6 speed with the 2 liter is more managable IMO than the long gear with the 2.4. Thats a preference though. One day ill get that 2.2 finished on the same trans... and i think i will have found my happy place.

  5. #35
    Registered User sleepy ep3's Avatar
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    Youre going to do what u want anyway. Mod the a3, have fun, awesome.
    As a daily driven car, I prefer the k24 over the old a3 any day. The extra torque allows you to barely push it to get going, and you can just putter about without any fuss. As you can get a good k24 for around $5-600 bucks, I wouldn't waste my time on an a3

  6. #36
    Registered User USAF EP3's Avatar
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    Haters are going to hate



    Stock B18 and D16 rods:

    b-drods.jpg

    Stock A3 rods:

    krods.jpg

    If the D rods can hold over 300 horses as proven in the video above, with high boost for that matter, then there is no excuse why the A3 can't do it too without blowing up. I think it's a laziness from the tuners to just point the customers to a "better" platform (no bigger does not mean better lol), because they don't want to sit for a whole day trying to extract every available power from the K20A3.

    Think about it, american cars don't bother with small displacement high output. It easier for them to just drop a big 5.7L and make 400 horses than put a 2.4L four pot with a big turbo and tune the hell out of it to make the same 400 horses. Quit bullying the guy into getting a bigger engine, he'll do whatever the hell he wants and I hope he proves everyone here wrong on the potential of the A3.

    Conclusion: D16's do it, you say A3 can't, I'm calling the
    Last edited by USAF EP3; 04-29-2012 at 01:28 PM.

  7. #37
    Registered User sleepy ep3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAF EP3 View Post
    [SIZE=4]

    Think about it, american cars don't bother with small displacement (and generally are faster with less $$$ invested) *It's* easier for them to just drop a big motor and make real world drive-able horsepower that's easier to control under acceleration, than to put a 2.4L four pot with a big turbo and rev the living hell out of it to make any power, and costs more to develop for multiple reasons. Your not bullying the guy into getting a bigger engine, your just telling him the facts. I hope he proves everyone here right yet again on the potential of the A3.

    Conclusion: Why don't most of the cars that see track or drag duty use these motors? Because they would rather be smart and use whats right, rather than trying to be cool and cater to the 1%
    Fixed.

    BTW, have you actually ever compared the stock a3 rods to a d series, b series and aftermarket rod side by side, other than pictures, and looked at the physical difference? Anyway, I already told him to go his own way. I have no stake in the matter, so I don't care, I'm just saying my .02. Your not a communist are you?

    It all falls down to the age old saying:

    JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD
    Last edited by sleepy ep3; 04-30-2012 at 10:45 AM.

  8. #38
    Registered User USAF EP3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy ep3 View Post
    Fixed.

    BTW, have you actually ever compared the stock a3 rods to a d series, b series and aftermarket rod side by side, other than pictures, and looked at the physical difference? Anyway, I already told him to go his own way. I have no stake in the matter, so I don't care, I'm just saying my .02. Your not a communist are you?

    It all falls down to the age old saying:

    JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD
    Don't see anywhere in my post that would lead you to infer a question as to whether I was a communist or not. I certainly don't consider myself one.

    I've never compared the rods in person only because I haven't been able to get a hold of a set of B/D rods, but just for this thread's sake (and your challenge) I will go out this week and buy a set.

    Also, I by no means am putting down american horsepower. I own over 1000 shares in Ford Motor Co., and I will admit I am proud to say that they are doing a great job by adding their version of VVT to the new 5.0 engine and using the technology smaller displacement engines have been using for years to put out higher horsepower per litre. In that sense I feel I made a great investment with them (owned since 2009).

    My point I was trying to make is that if you have a car with an engine already in it and you want to see how far it'll take you, then do it. You'll never really know the limit if you never try and that's what the pioneers of tuning do.

    No need to call me crazy (or communist for that matter) or go and change what I said into something completely different, I would appreciate if you could respect other's opinions and views instead of imposing your own. If anything I would ask if YOU were the communist, you want everyone to have the same engine that works so well for you.
    Last edited by USAF EP3; 04-30-2012 at 12:23 PM.

  9. #39
    Registered User sleepy ep3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAF EP3 View Post
    Don't see anywhere in my post that would lead you to infer a question as to whether I was a communist or not. I certainly don't consider myself one.

    I've never compared the rods in person only because I haven't been able to get a hold of a set of B/D rods, but just for this thread's sake (and your challenge) I will go out this week and buy a set.

    Also, I by no means am putting down american horsepower. I own over 1000 shares in Ford Motor Co., and I will admit I am proud to say that they are doing a great job by adding their version of VVT to the new 5.0 engine and using the technology smaller displacement engines have been using for years to put out higher horsepower per litre. In that sense I feel I made a great investment with them (owned since 2009).

    My point I was trying to make is that if you have a car with an engine already in it and you want to see how far it'll take you, then do it. You'll never really know the limit if you never try and that's what the pioneers of tuning do.

    No need to call me crazy (or communist for that matter) or go and change what I said into something completely different, I would appreciate if you could respect other's opinions and views instead of imposing your own. If anything I would ask if YOU were the communist, you want everyone to have the same engine that works so well for you.
    Lol, I was saying communist because it seems like all those opposed to the idea of a built a3 are ridiculed, and shot down. Personally, I wouldn't care if you were lol. I'm not saying that he couldn't mod the a3. I modded mine in the beginning, and it was fun. What I am saying (and many others are trying to say) is that for making 3-350 hp, there are better choices, that will make the power without as much stress. It's a debate, and there is no right answer, just opinions. But when people that have been there before, and done a lot of research, blown up motors, and seen what works well and what doesn't speak up, and offer opinions, I usually listen, and at the minimum, give it some thought.

    I changed what you said out of humor, and you didn't get it. Chill out, go change your sanitary towel, and let's all be friends again. :)
    Last edited by sleepy ep3; 04-30-2012 at 04:20 PM.

  10. #40
    Moderator=>PM 4 Help MugenReplica's Avatar
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    Long forgotten information about the K20a3 is that it makes more power than both the F20C and the K20a2 below 6000rpms, so not great for peak power, but pretty damn good for mid range.

    From back in 2003.....
    While I was looking through Comptech's website to look for new products, I found some dyno charts of the 02' Civic Si (K20A3), 02 RSX-S (K20A2), and the S2000 (F20C). Since I was bored, I decided to plot the charts together and do some simple analyses. The numbers come directly from Comptech's published numbers for the cars in stock form.

    In this first graph, I plot the horsepower for all 3 engines. The blue line is the K20A3 (02 Si), the red line is the K20A2 (RSX-S), and the yellow line is the F20C (S2000). What struck me was the fact that the K20A3's horsepower is higher than the K20A2 and the F20C until about 6000RPMs.



    We can get a better idea of the horsepower difference by looking at the following graph. I plot the Delta (i.e. the difference between the engine horsepower). The blue line is the horsepower difference between the K20A3 and the K20A2 (i.e. K20A3 - K20A2). The red line is the difference between the K20A3 and the F20C and the yellow line is the difference between the F20C and the K20A2. A positive number indicates that the reference engine is producing more power at a given RPM. For instance, the blue line shows that the K20A3 produces more power than the K20A2 up until 6000RPMs. Similarly, the K20A3 produces more power than the F20C up until about 5800RPMs. Notice that the S2000 produces more power than the RSX-S except for a few spots.



    The torque graphs show a similar trend.



    So at about 6000RPMs, there is a definite change between the power characteristics of the K20A3 as compared to the K20A2 and F20C. I've heard that the Civic Si has a restrictive intake and exhaust. Another obvious problem is the fact that the Civic Si only has 6800RPMs versus the 8000RPM and 9000RPM limits of the RSX-S and S2000 respectively.

    What happens when we add some modifications? I used Comptech's data for a 02 Civic Si with their intake, header and exhaust combo to compare it to the stock S2000 and RSX-S. See the next 4 graphs.






    To be fair, the dyno numbers are not from an independent source so we need to take them with a grain of salt. However, we see that the RPM point at which the K20A3 is overtaken by the other two engines gets pushed out by one to two hundred RPMs.

    The only thing we are missing is the improved redline. According to Hondata's website, a totally stock Civic Si with 91 octane gas and their flash upgrade produced about 10HP at the peak.

    http://www.hondata.com/k20a3civicsirelease.html

    What we really need to see is a dyno numbers for the Si, RSX-S and S2000 from an independent dyno. Furthermore, we need to see a dyno from the Si with the hondata flash tuned for an intake, header and exhaust.

    My question: Is it possible to maintain the good low RPM characteristics of the K20A3 while simultaneously improving the high RPM characteristics? A Hondata flash seems like it would help, but a change in cams may be in order. It doesn't look like Toda makes cams for the K20A3, so it looks like we're out of luck.

    Why do I ask? Simple. You can get a Civic Si for well under MSRP. My friend picked one up for $17K out the door. Compared tto a RSX-S at $24K, you have about $7K to work with (assuming that you like the look of the Si ;-)). Anyway, if Toda made their engine kit for the K20A3 (or if you could use the K20A kit) and sold it for $2400, you'd still have $4.6K to work with. Is it possible to make a Civic Si perform as well as a similarly modded RSX-S?

  11. #41
    Registered User Blah1219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKEP View Post
    The K-series anything is a good motor, honda really put some effort into it's design. The A3 is no exception. I beat on mine for 105k with stock EVERYTHING minus KPro.

    I'm not sure how much QA went into the A3 assembly when it was at plant, or how much of it is put together by hand, but it's left some people with barely 300hp, or under 350.

    Now when you take in to account that these were probably built with an unopened block, this motor isn't going to make much more power.

    300hp is a lot of good street power too, theres nothing wrong with 300hp, thats enough to spin 3rd on some cheap tires. the 300hp barrier might be a tq problem more than a hp problem. Thats usually the cause of ANY motor explosion not related to detonation.

    The A3 block is great, just needs higher tolerances for everything in it. which is why people opt for a2 internals, at least the crank with forged rods and pistons, oil pump and pan. we already know an A2 can make over 600hp (record right now is somewhere in there) in an unopened block. but if your goal is to not open the a3 and push 350-400hp, good luck.

    For the cost of a k24a1, you are getting 20lbs or so more tq and a higher flowing 2 lobe head and a stronger bottom end that will just about garantee you 500hp unopened. For the price, you just can't beat it. even if you got free a2 internals, working to put those in the a3 vs not touching an a1. It's just easier and more reliable to make power with. You save your turbo by allowing more CFM of flow, which in terms means more power for the same amount of boost. Your turbo wont be spooling its ass off to stuff this air in an engine that wont flow.

    It's up to you. You can do a small build just to make a reliable 300 no bullshit, but why waste your money opening the a3 up when you can just toss in a k24a1 and be even better off.
    While I have my freshly OEM built a3, yall can count down the miles left on that high mileage k24a1.

  12. #42
    Registered User Powers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MugenReplica View Post
    Long forgotten information about the K20a3 is that it makes more power than both the F20C and the K20a2 below 6000rpms, so not great for peak power, but pretty damn good for mid range.

    From back in 2003.....
    While I was looking through Comptech's website to look for new products, I found some dyno charts of the 02' Civic Si (K20A3), 02 RSX-S (K20A2), and the S2000 (F20C). Since I was bored, I decided to plot the charts together and do some simple analyses. The numbers come directly from Comptech's published numbers for the cars in stock form.

    In this first graph, I plot the horsepower for all 3 engines. The blue line is the K20A3 (02 Si), the red line is the K20A2 (RSX-S), and the yellow line is the F20C (S2000). What struck me was the fact that the K20A3's horsepower is higher than the K20A2 and the F20C until about 6000RPMs.



    We can get a better idea of the horsepower difference by looking at the following graph. I plot the Delta (i.e. the difference between the engine horsepower). The blue line is the horsepower difference between the K20A3 and the K20A2 (i.e. K20A3 - K20A2). The red line is the difference between the K20A3 and the F20C and the yellow line is the difference between the F20C and the K20A2. A positive number indicates that the reference engine is producing more power at a given RPM. For instance, the blue line shows that the K20A3 produces more power than the K20A2 up until 6000RPMs. Similarly, the K20A3 produces more power than the F20C up until about 5800RPMs. Notice that the S2000 produces more power than the RSX-S except for a few spots.



    The torque graphs show a similar trend.



    So at about 6000RPMs, there is a definite change between the power characteristics of the K20A3 as compared to the K20A2 and F20C. I've heard that the Civic Si has a restrictive intake and exhaust. Another obvious problem is the fact that the Civic Si only has 6800RPMs versus the 8000RPM and 9000RPM limits of the RSX-S and S2000 respectively.

    What happens when we add some modifications? I used Comptech's data for a 02 Civic Si with their intake, header and exhaust combo to compare it to the stock S2000 and RSX-S. See the next 4 graphs.






    To be fair, the dyno numbers are not from an independent source so we need to take them with a grain of salt. However, we see that the RPM point at which the K20A3 is overtaken by the other two engines gets pushed out by one to two hundred RPMs.

    The only thing we are missing is the improved redline. According to Hondata's website, a totally stock Civic Si with 91 octane gas and their flash upgrade produced about 10HP at the peak.

    http://www.hondata.com/k20a3civicsirelease.html

    What we really need to see is a dyno numbers for the Si, RSX-S and S2000 from an independent dyno. Furthermore, we need to see a dyno from the Si with the hondata flash tuned for an intake, header and exhaust.

    My question: Is it possible to maintain the good low RPM characteristics of the K20A3 while simultaneously improving the high RPM characteristics? A Hondata flash seems like it would help, but a change in cams may be in order. It doesn't look like Toda makes cams for the K20A3, so it looks like we're out of luck.

    Why do I ask? Simple. You can get a Civic Si for well under MSRP. My friend picked one up for $17K out the door. Compared tto a RSX-S at $24K, you have about $7K to work with (assuming that you like the look of the Si ;-)). Anyway, if Toda made their engine kit for the K20A3 (or if you could use the K20A kit) and sold it for $2400, you'd still have $4.6K to work with. Is it possible to make a Civic Si perform as well as a similarly modded RSX-S?
    That seems like a pretty good argument if you ask me. If you buy the hondata reflash as a for now thing lets say, and later decide to get kpro hondata will give you a discount on kpro right? If so I might be willing to try out the reflash and put it on a dyno.....this is of course after I go home on leave for my 21st birthday though.

    I also may be able to get my buddy whos purchasing a basic bolt on type s soon to go to the dyno afterwards with me....and if I get to know the s2k that always ends up parked next to me I may be able to get him to go to the dyno aswell (s2k just has a catback as far as I know)
    Last edited by Powers; 04-30-2012 at 06:00 PM.

  13. #43
    明らかにド素人 JDM SHIT! playap07's Avatar
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    Interesting information Mugenreplica provided. I like it.

    Gtolio, If i were you and I was really serious about seeing if the a3 can push more than 300hp and 300tq, for starters i would start a case study (i think thats what its called)
    what I would do is compile a list of::

    k20a3s that blew
    what mods
    if boosted or not
    thier power level (hopefully with chart if able to locate one)
    type of tune
    What componet failed
    How did it fail?


    Im willing to bet on some of the boosted a3s the drivier might have tried to go in boost in high gear low rpm and cause tremendous load on the engine. This is just my speculation but in order to find out you would have to ask that individual and hope they tell the accurate truth. I would even check other forums like clubrsx for their info. Also i would check with tuners to get their info. I remeber i used to go on evanstuning website and look at all the numbers and data he provided on the engines he tuned. alot of usefull information on there if you ask me.
    Last edited by playap07; 04-30-2012 at 08:45 PM.

  14. #44
    Registered User 04EP3Hatch's Avatar
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    im going to 12psi im bored already, gtolio if i do it before you do ill report back haha

  15. #45
    Registered User icee753's Avatar
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    well if you do up the boost let us know how it goes and what the numbers are.. also what injectors are you running on you current set up?

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