Hondata releases the K20A3-Si Civic flash upgrade

[ChurchAutoTest]

S800, the data I have on my dyno says that the 87 to 91 change was worth 2 hp in fully tuned mode.

Basically, if this is your first mod, I'd expect 10 hp, if you've got other mods, about 5 hp.

SC

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by ChurchAutoTest
myeverlovinsir,

I think you might not be looking at the whole picture here. Hondata has tested the flash on two cars. The totally stock car picked up 10 hp and pretty convincing gains. When it had the AEM mounted it picked up another 5 hp. If you reversed the order of modifications, the AEM would probably make more and the Hondata less - that's how it usually works, first mod makes the most power.

The car with intake and header picked up almost nothing below 6k except in a couple of places. In fact, even before the flash it was making less torque down low than the totally stock car, and far less than the stock car with flash.

What does this all mean? The answer is, no quite knows for sure. From a sales perspective, Hondata would have probably been better served to just post the stock car, stock car w/flash and stock car w/flash and AEM. But Doug is an honest guy who is interested in informing people - more info is better as far as he is concerned.

For your car, will you see gains? That is an unknown. Well, not quite, you will see gains on the top end, and the extra 800 rpm of rev range will help your acceleration a lot. You'll also see gains below 2000. The question is actually, will you see gains between 2000 and 7000 rpm.

I suspect that the stock exhaust on ep3guy's car may be problematic. I really don't know though. I'm sure he'll be back in for testing when he gets a new one.

That said, keep your eyes and ears open and see what results other people with similar mods as you get with the flash. I think that most will see some nice gains across the board. BTW folks, the dyno graph for Rick's car did not even have an intake, just Hondata and 91 octane. That's why you have to take An's results with a grain of salt, he wasn't producing as much power and torque as expected before the flash.

Best of luck.

SC

I am not disputing the gains from stock at all, I think others are not so quick to judge because they have not yet made any std. bolt on mods yet, and the chip would offer them the quick fix to get reasonable gains for a reasonable cost. Cudos for that. Where things get grey for me, and believe me, I was the first to toot how much I wanted hondata to put the crown on my car, is that the advantages are waning when other standard mods are included in the mix. Things don't always work out as expected. You guys have seen that there is a limit to tuning even with moderate mods. An's car might mean there is another 2-3 hp being drained along his exhaust, if so, I still am willing to do this. But my wisdom kicks in and from where I stand it's just not worth it yet. My mods are a little more specialized than what you guys have done. I know there was talk of including the TB mods in your test runs, and would hope that also lends itself to further gains. I think for the average consumer you guys have hit a nice mark. Hard to refute 10 or so hp for just $600 from stock.

The big picture is that my car is somewhat uniquely setup and should be tested and tuned apart from what hondata is currently offering, the generic chip won't cut the mustard for me, other than a higher rev. limit. I hope to include hondata tuning in my future mods, such as the head swap, but by then the rev. limit will no longer be an issue. Other internals such as connecting rods and pistons are going to take precidence.

I think for now I will be happy to be ahead of the game thus far and wait until tuning is entirely necessary.

btw: I did not spend near $600 US to get there, excluding the header and CAI of course.

myeverlovinsir...:D

[ChurchAutoTest]

gpt, I don't believe they are published. Doug should have all that data, and if not, he can always come get it from my PC - but I can't publish as it doesn't belong to me :-) However, on every RSX I've tested, be it through Hondata or my independent customers, the first mod always gains the most - or, shall I say, gains disproportionately more, than it would if it came later. On a totally stock RSX-S, the Hondata gained about 20 hp. On a modded car, that gain was only 12 hp. Law of diminishing returns, which is particularly relevant when we're leaving the internals of the engine (head, cam, compression) unchanged. They are the true airflow and power arbiters, all the bolt on parts and tuning are just an attempt to maximize their potential. Only when you change one of these things can you truly "reset" the performance gain cycle.

That said, I really can't predict the effect of the header. Since we didn't dyno An's car before and after the header, I'm just guessing. But I suspect the header may actually compromise bottom end a little in return for allowing the engine to sustain power better on the top end - based upon seeing An's car _after_ the header vs. Rick's car bone stock. This appears to be similar to what happens with base RSX's. But without direct before and after with wideband O2 sensor logging and OBDII monitoring, its hard to be sure - so take this guess with a grain of salt.

SC

[ChurchAutoTest]

One other thing to consider. I am a dyno owner, and as such, sometimes I get caught up in the hp chase on the dyno screen. But we all must remember, we don't race dyno sheets. I have no doubt in my mind that a car with the Hondata rev limit and top end, even if it is making 5 hp less at peak than another car with stock rev limit, will pull on that other car in virtually any acceleration test requiring more than one gear.

Whether or not that is worth the money required is, of course, a personal value decision.

SC

[JSIR]

Shawn, what do you think of the 7700 rpm limiter, that is much higher than I expected, I was thinking maybe 7400 max. Do you think the Civic Si valvetrain is up to the task with single valvesprings, how about the bottom end ?. Sounds great to me, I just want the engine to hold up for the long term though. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

thanks

Joey

[myeverlovinsir]

Shawn, what header specifically is An running? I know from experience that the DC header is an outperformer in the low end torque area compared to HP. Let us know. tks:)

[ChurchAutoTest]

Joey,

Don't know. It seems to handle it and the curve is perfect for that sort of limiter (you know, having some overrev past the power peak). I seem to recall hearing that Hondata and JR have taken their supercharged Si test mule to over 8k on stock internals, but you'll have to ask them to be sure.

Considering that you could take an old B18A/B to 7500+ all day long on stock internals, and it had a longer stroke and much older tech, I don't think there will be a problem.

SC

[JSIR]

thanks Shawn, good point. Yeah I had one of those old b18b's with Dinan chip before, it went to 7500, never thought about that comparison. I just picked up a shop manual today, I noticed the bottom end girdle on these k20's is pretty impressive, lots of support. I guess an 86mm stroke isn't all that big. wonder if the balance shafts help things any on our engine to keep things smoother at upper rpms. maybe.

[ChurchAutoTest]

I believe An is running the DC header. I found it rather strange that even with intake and header he was making less torque down low than Rick's totally stock car. When we added an intake to Rick's car, it picked up low end torque. Same thing when we added the ECU, so I figured it might be An's header, or maybe not having an exhaust system.

Just for reference, everyone should be sure to read the dyno procedures section on the Hondata site. Doug put together a lot of that from the procedures that I use. You have to make sure you monitor and control the critical variables to ensure consistency. All of the runs on An's and Rick's cars were done with coolant temps in the 185 +/-3 deg range to ensure consistency.

SC

[ChurchAutoTest]

Yeah, its no K20A or K20A2 Joey, but considering those motors can rev to 8800 rpm on stock internals with the same stroke, I don't think 7700 is going to hurt the bottom end of the K20A3. But again, I don't _know_ that.

SC

[bioevolve]

I wonder if I would get any gains with my setup with or without N2O ?

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by ChurchAutoTest
I believe An is running the DC header. I found it rather strange that even with intake and header he was making less torque down low than Rick's totally stock car. When we added an intake to Rick's car, it picked up low end torque. Same thing when we added the ECU, so I figured it might be An's header, or maybe not having an exhaust system.

Just for reference, everyone should be sure to read the dyno procedures section on the Hondata site. Doug put together a lot of that from the procedures that I use. You have to make sure you monitor and control the critical variables to ensure consistency. All of the runs on An's and Rick's cars were done with coolant temps in the 185 +/-3 deg range to ensure consistency.

SC

Good to know, I agree. If An adds a nice midpipe to the setup he may very well be ahead and the tune could show more positive results. We have found that the combination of I/H/E are critical to realizing the full gains on these engines. tks

[civic hatch boi]

if i only have a aem cai.. is the ecu not worth getting? i was stocked that we were gonna get 10-12hp.. but since i already have a cai.. i don't know if $600 is worth just a higher redline.

[IceD out N CALI]

i think the bottom end of the a3 can probably witstand the extra rpms, i'm more concerned with the valvetrain being able to handle it

[gpt]

Originally posted by civic hatch boi
if i only have a aem cai.. is the ecu not worth getting? i was stocked that we were gonna get 10-12hp.. but since i already have a cai.. i don't know if $600 is worth just a higher redline.

The chart you are comparing to is with CAI and header. I also only have a CAI but there are no charts showing the flash and CAI only (which is strange because on Hondata's site it says the flash is designed for this) Lets hope we see the flash and CAI dyno soon!

I think it is worth it because of the more broad increase in torque it offers over a header upgrade (and the higher rev limit!)