Hondata releases the K20A3-Si Civic flash upgrade

[ep3guy]

Since everyone is wondering what I'm currently running right now. I have a AEM CAI, 4-1 DC ceramic header, and the flash upgrade. I believe Shawn Church is correct. The reason for the torque loss is due to not having an exhuast. The piping is just too restrictive in my opinion, but I may be wrong. We'll find out soon once I get the Borla exhaust, if in the end, I do. I, just like a lot of other people, want to find out how the Borla exhaust performs.

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by ep3guy
Since everyone is wondering what I'm currently running right now. I have a AEM CAI, 4-1 DC ceramic header, and the flash upgrade. I believe Shawn Church is correct. The reason for the torque loss is due to not having an exhuast. The piping is just too restrictive in my opinion, but I may be wrong. We'll find out soon once I get the Borla exhaust, if in the end, I do. I, just like a lot of other people, want to find out how the Borla exhaust performs.

Hold the press, unless you have removed the baffle plate from the DC header it's a 4-2-1. If what you say is correct and your running a 4-1 header then damn, you just lost all the torque benifits you would ever expect from the DC. Please let us know.

I thought rick77f was going to contribue a Borla exhaust on his ride? Would like to know how that pans out as well. tks.

[!@#$%]

the hp header is straight 4-1 design and they seem to be the ones getting 150+ hp with I/H/E whereas the DC and I/E usually nets appox 146-149. (at least from what ive seen) The torque curve however, im not really sure if its really THAT different.

Even with I/H/E the downpipe going to the cat is still VERY restrictive. Maybe this is the one piece that maintains that little bit of torque.

I wonder what CAI/Spoon complete header (replacement pipe w/cat), and catback or midpipe would net.....should have much smoother airflow than having gulps of air through intake, then header....then straw pipe to cat....then back to big exit through the exhaust.

I wonder what torque curve the spoon header retains.... maybe it actually IS worth the money. who knows.

Then compare cai/spoon header/exhaust(midpipe) setup with the hondata. if i had $$$$ id do it just for testing purposes.

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by !@#$%
the hp header is straight 4-1 design and they seem to be the ones getting 150+ hp with I/H/E whereas the DC and I/E usually nets appox 146-149. (at least from what ive seen) The torque curve however, im not really sure if its really THAT different.

Your partially correct, from what you have seen, I ran with I/H/E and netted ~149 hp at the limiter, nothing to write home about.
The HP does perform better in comparison in the top end with I/DC H/E, but once the TB is done the top end is moot. and the torque is more proficient in the DC overall. No one here yet has shown the results of removing the baffle plate from the DC, but I would expect the same as a HP header considering the primaries (diameter) are the same aside from longer pipes in cylinders 2 & 3 its a tough call. 134 ft/lbs in the 4800rpm range is just wonderfull. It's a great landing point between shifts. Torque speaks volumes compared to some extraneous rev limiter hp. ;)

[Hondata]

Originally posted by SouthHonda
What kind of follow up service can buyers expect??

My question to you is this. Is your product gauranteed to make horsepower on not only stock vehicles but modified vehicles (beyond I/H/E)?? If it is and I dont see gains to satisfy myself for a $600 investment, will you guys offer an upgrade or custom version for each individual car?? There are companies out there that offer one time reprograms of stock ECU's (Jet, HyperTech,Superchips, etc) for the state of tune you vehicle is currently in. Is this what we are buying?? Or is is the upgrade able to be modified by the installer later to customize it toward an individual car??

These questions are meant in no way to badmouth or downgrade your product in any way. I myself need to know this before I invest a decent size chunk of cash into it.

Scott, your questions are very relevant.

Our comittment to customer service is 100%. We can not afford to make products that do not perform as advertised. In fact our customers do our advertising. Last year we spent about $3000 on advertising. That would buy you about a 1/3 color page in Sport Compact Car.

We have never had a customer ask for their money because they were unhappy with any of our products. Never. We offer a 30 day money back guarantee. If you are not satisfied, return it to us and we will return the ECU to stock.

For dealers like yourself, we will be putting in a program where you can buy a reflashed ECU ECU, ignition key and immobiliser. That way you can test the ECU in a customer's car before they buy. It will take you less than 5 minutes to fit.

We can only test our programs with upgrades available such as intake headers and exhaust. As other bolt ons become available (such as forced induction), we will test them and offer upgrades where appropriate.

At some distant time in the future, we hope to offer dealers and customers the means to reprogram their own computers, based off the tunes we have already done. Less than 5 percent of customers would want to attempt this on their own car. Less than 1 percent should be allowed to.

So far we have only dyno tested two Civics. More will give us more information. Here is what I propose. I will host a dyno day in conjunction with Shawn Church automotive testing. Dyno pulls will be $45 each for three pulls including airfuel ratio. One of those dyno pulls will include swapping the stock ECU with the Hondata ECU. We all get to learn something.

Our policy has always been one of education. A smarter customer makes better choices, even if it is not our product. You will see this extending to the Civic Si over the next few months as we test more modifications. As we learn, we will post.

By way of comparison, the base manual RSX responds well to intake headers exhaust and flash programming. I expect that a similarly equipped Civic should as well. We need to do more testing to find out why An's Civic did not respond well on the dyno as Rick's.

As I think Shawn mentioned, we do not drive dynos. An's comments were that the dyno did not do justice to the improvments he felt on the road.

I will be posting more information on comparitive dyno runs over the course of the weekend. For example the effect of a CAI, headers, comparisons with a Base RSX, Type S etc.

[SiRman]

Thanks Hondata for the honest hands on interactive approach in the developement of your products. It benefits us the customers, as well yourself in referals.

[ep3guy]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir


Hold the press, unless you have removed the baffle plate from the DC header it's a 4-2-1. If what you say is correct and your running a 4-1 header then damn, you just lost all the torque benifits you would ever expect from the DC. Please let us know.

I thought rick77f was going to contribue a Borla exhaust on his ride? Would like to know how that pans out as well. tks.

Sorry, I meant 4-2-1. I'm supposed to be getting an exhaust from Borla too, but not so sure of it anymore.

[chunky]

some important questions that remain to be asked:

1) what was the mileage on each of the cars during the dyno testing?

2) were the air filters checked to see if they were dirty and in need of replacement?

3) what type of maintenance schedule was each car on? was one getting it's oil changed at every 3000 miles v.s. the other getting it's oil changed at 5000 miles? In my experience, dirty oil is a real bummer on the EP. After I change the oil it's like whoa.

Mostly I'm curious about the mileage on each car. b/c if they're not similar, then that could account for part of the discrepancy as a motor with more mileage could be better broken in

I'm kind of dissapionted in the test vehicles you utilized. When run on a dynapack my completely stock car put down 147 to the wheels though not nearly as much torque. Were the dyno pulls done in 4th gear? What gearing specs did you input into the dynapack program?

here's a shot of my stock dyno.

*edit* wierd, I couldn't attach the image. . .

[02blksi]

well, the long awaited release date is here.... What do I think? Well horspower numbers vary car to car.. Im more intrested in the Hondata system for the real benifits IMO .

--Better 0-60 acclereation
-- higer rev limit
-- and a wonderful basis for forced induction tunning .. when available.

how many stand alone fully programable honda systems will net you 600 and give you the benifts listed above, simply plug and play to boot.??? NOT MANY if any.

OEM ECU OEM SENSORS/WIRING, and plug an play --600 bucks to enjoy your car a bit more, and since many people are soooo concerned with their 1/4 mile times, then the higher rev limit alone is worth it finishing the 1/4 in third instead of fourth (im guessing, havent run my car at the track).

Hondata/ DOUG -- with this flash are you offering the other little benifits like -- rev limit (dual stage) , and shift light??? if requested?

Also i live in CT, and to date no shops in my area have are hondata dealers :( any chance some info can be forwarded to me so that i can find someone to do this flash for me? -- Also, will instructions be provided on which jumper cable to cut so that the dealership cannot erase or refalsh my hondata flash..

Lastly -- any chance of an ephatch.com groupbuy?? i know you wont really go down much in price (thats what ive heard) but how about some nifty extras thrown into the ephatch.com flashes -- since our members were used to get this flash .. like shift light, or work something out with overnight shipping etc. -- just some thoughts. Once again thankyou for making a A3 SI flash.. ---Joe :)

[S800Racer]

Originally posted by SiRman
Thanks Hondata for the honest hands on interactive approach in the developement of your products. It benefits us the customers, as well yourself in referals.

Amen! Hondata's willingness to show us the good, the bad and the ugly in their testing results gives them a ton of credibility in my book.

That said, I'm not sure I'll be getting the K20A3 flash. I would love to have the extra revs and I don't doubt that the power gains will be good, but I really want to do a K20A2 swap and I might just save my pennies for that. I also have to consider that running my A3 to 7700 rpm might affect it's resale value when I do my swap.

[Hondata]

If you are worried about the resale value, then do not take it to 7700 rpm. As I think someone has already pointed out, the previous B18b non vtec engines had a redline of 7500 - and arguably these are better built engines with roller rockers and balance shafts.

When you get your K20A2 engine, simply have your ECU reflashed with the Hondata performance program. The upgrade cost is just $200.

[nikkotyper]

Good job, Hondata. Keep the reasearch/testing going as you are definatelly on to something. . .

Thanks.

[ChurchAutoTest]

You'll have to ask Hondata about mileage, but I do know that outside of changing the intake on Rick's car, no other changes were made to the cars short of the flash change. So, if they had old oil, they had it through all the runs. I suspect that Rick's airfilter was clean though, that guy is meticulous :-)

All runs were made in 4th gear using Honda specified gear ratio data, backed up by the ratio setup test on the dyno. Run time was 10 seconds in each case starting at 1500 rpm.

147 hp on a Dynapack for a stock Si is exceptionally high. We were actually surprised that the stock car put down 140 whp as Base RSX's usually dyno lower. By comparison, here are what some other stock cars (using the more powerful examples) have put down on several occasions:

Stock RSX-S - 170 whp
Stock 00-01 S2000 - 212 whp
Stock 02 S2000 - 217 whp (yes, they consistently make more!)
Stock base RSX - 130 whp
Stock Nissan 350Z - 254 whp

As you can see, most cars tend to average about 30 hp less than their rated crank specifications (the 02 S2000's are believed to have an upgraded ECU) and when compared to each other seem to be pretty consistent.

All tests are done with an OBDII scantool hooked up and coolant temps stabilized. We always throw out the first run of the day which is usually the highest (same goes for runs after extended cool downs). If you do not monitor these things, power numbers can vary wildly.

SC

Originally posted by chunky

I'm kind of dissapionted in the test vehicles you utilized. When run on a dynapack my completely stock car put down 147 to the wheels though not nearly as much torque. Were the dyno pulls done in 4th gear? What gearing specs did you input into the dynapack program?
.

[Jpax]

147HP with a flash.................thats it........:(

[quicksi]

HONDATA I WAS WONDERING IF YOU GUYS WILL BE MAKING A FLASH THAT WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH NITROUS.