Hasbro's Build Journal

[Hasbro]

Linear, sir.

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9:50 pm
Tire speak; decided to drop rear psi from 32.5 cold at about 60 degrees to 29.5. I'm a bad person jumping 3 psi at once but I want to see some distinct differences. Time to heat them up and boogey. I want to see how fast they heat up and where they fail.
Smooth little tight turns at autox speeds. Off we go.

11:30
Very good results. Poorly done experiment as the new -2.7/-3 camber hadn't been pushed hard yet so two factors were at play instead of just the -3 psi.
- No use of white shoe polish or temp gun. Will do those some other time.
- Kumhos were very nice and sticky. The best they've ever felt - gummy. A tire article on MiataTurbo.Net gave me some clues as to what needed to be done.
- Camber felt wonderful.
- First time rear end felt really up to the task in spite of the springs, which felt even weaker.
- More lean in the rear and a bit mushy
- I backed off before spinning, it was like glue.
- The front felt so stable it was easy to ignore and think about the rear.
- 3rd gear, 80 mph turn, could feel the rear not even slip, more like squirm and felt stable, predictable, and up to more speed. Probably pushed too fast for the first fast corner but wanted to push faster it felt so good. Very confidence inspiring.
- This little EP is a sweet bitch in heat.

[sam10k]

Thanks, Sam.

Traditionally, front wheel drive performance alignments are set up with more camber in the front while Andy set his up for more rear camber. He won five national championships with this approach. There is a bit more to it as he also used four different weight springs and weighed front left to rear left to an equal percentage of front right to rear right, so emulating it requires lots of corner weighing. I am still a ways from the eqivalent with the EP but Andy approved of what I want to do, just need mo money for springs and scales and same sized front and rear tires. This alignment is good for street and autox but is a bit more of a hassle for most, understandably. Plus, once it breaks loose..... The more extreme your suspension/alignment, the more catastrophic the adhesion loss is when it goes.

Andy; "..Further, the rear of the car is designed to have enough grip that it will NOT let go in a turn no matter what we do with the front. This allows us to hammer the car through elements with no fear of the rear. It also allows us to optimize the front grip without negative impact on the rear.."

Oh, forgot, it also requires different camber on all four wheels, which I have tried but currently my set up is -3 both rears, -2.7 fronts until I can do the four different springs and his percentage set up. I tried to compensate by raising the left sides a little higher but have evened all corners for the time being. It sticks very well but will stick much better when completed.

I just recently learned that the white 91 Civic at my local autox is Andy's former car. Couldn't believe it,of all the tracks in the country, it's here! I will be pestering the new owner this weekend!

Unfortunately, I can't get that much camber on the front.
the alignment technician said that my tie rod is too long, and the toe in will be max out if following my camber spec (-1.8)
Right now, I am confused on the actual number of stock ride height. You mentioned before it should be around 6.75 inches, but this number is measured on stock 15 or 16 inches tires. Because they have 0.7 inches different on overall diameter.
I am running 225/50/16 and 7.25 inches from the front jack stand point.

[sam10k]

Just rambling;

- Need to do a compilation of tire threads that I peruse through. Stick them on post #6..A couple are over 50 pages and go back 3 or 4 years but the historical chronology is very important if you don't have a life or just dig tires.

- My tire interests almost always pertain to tires in the UTQG range of 100 to 200 - Extreme Summers or tires that are still street legal and semi practical but maybe not legal for SCCA ST, etc. Tires that are the best for our car's handling without being pure track. Track days, street, autox. DOT Radials, let's stay away from cantilevered and non cantilevered slicks, they only complicate the topic but lets state that cantilevered slicks also like a wide rim.

- Interesting to note that a handling tire should be paired with a wheel that is at least as wide as the tread but the best is a wheel as wide as the tire carcass (widest part of tire). So, for instance, a 225 tire should be minimally mounted on a 8.5" wheel, 9" even better but no wider. Some stance guys actually luck out when stretching, although most overdo it. Chimps. A 9" wheel will stiffen the sidewall optimally, shape the tread better, and reduce tread squirm.

- If all of this stuff is too much trouble and one is looking for a great road tire that does everything such as braking, handling, rain, quiet(er), longevity, comfort - go Michelin PSS. But expensive and smallest sizes are 17".

- I like data from racing Miatas the most, especially turboed. Not fwd but similar weights, springs, they put tires to the test with 250 - 400 hp, and are extensively tested from grass roots to pro.

- A lot of Miata racers still like the Kumho XS for their ability to stay sticky on a road course. I read a couple of days ago that they are even worse than I thought when it's chilly - which verifies my suspicions that they contributed to my rear spinning about 8 times at this winter's autox school. (I have RA1s front/Kumhos rear)

- A lot of guys were disappointed, especially at Nationals, with the Rival's autox performance. Everyone thought they were THE answer. Some titled with them but many went back what they had been using. Rivals make a nice track tire and have been likened to older r compound semi slicks. It's still a ground breaking tire and well worth having, probably the best overall Extreme Summer.

- A tire has to match the suspension set up AND the driver.

- A lot of guys like the RS3s over Rivals. The RS3s also make a lot of sense for high hp EPs with their excellent straight line traction.

- My next choice of tire will be the Toyo R1R in 245/35/17 if I can afford them. I will greatly miss my RA1s, not so much the Kumhos, but they were fun, too. If I can't afford the switch I'll probably go RA1 245/45/16s all around. The R1Rs are still considered by many to be better at autox than RS3s and Rivals - if it's cool or wet. They also overheat/grease up fast on the track. So why do I want them?
1. Only tire in a 24" diameter and 9 1/2" tread.
2. They are too greasy here in the desert for summer autox. So what, I'm too greasy in the summer here, too, and have no desire to stand around in the desert sun on a tarmac registering 135 degrees plus. Autox, for me is just for suspension tuning and nut-behind-the-wheel tuning. R1Rs are perfect for the street as they warm up quickly and are at a good temp for the street. The RA1s I warm up more.
3. I will someday use slicks for track and autox.

Hmmm, so optimally I should be contemplating 10" wheels front and rear.

----------------

Just to make sure, threw a thread out on ClubEP re. whether moving my rear 6" 515s to the front would pose a problem (too short). Musty said it would be fine. Now to find some cheap 6" 750s.

dunlop star spec. z2 should be another good choice as well.

[Hasbro]

ZII is definitely in the top few and I've mentioned them often.

I don't know the specific stock height at the jacking points, I was quoting Mustclime. Perhaps he was quoting the earlier 15" model, which was .4" lower due to a 24.2" diameter. I've asked a couple of times for measurements but not gotten a viable response - walking out to their EP with a tape measure was too big a task, I guess. ;) My measurements were with 300 or 400 lbs. removed and they were around 7 1/4 - 7 1/2" so you may be correct. Measure from the lowest point. 225/50/16s measure at 25", stock height for the 16s.

Is everything stock, do you have camber bolts? You can't get much camber at stock height and no camber bolts so maybe he's right. I've never messed with much camber on a stock set up. If you don't feel confident with his work get on your local SCCA forum and ask for a reputable shop.

----------------------------------------------------------------

3/20

This has been a good week. Dropped the fronts tonight one psi so they are 33f/30r psi at 75 degrees. Went out and hit a couple of hard corners, the kind that make you shaky and giggly. The camber and psi change has transformed the car. So much more sticky and confidence inspiring. It's a bit softer, too, for now.

I've read that the fastest lap from adjusting psi is usually not what the driver feels is the fastest. And it is usually a softer setting from what the driver thought was fastest that is actually the fastest. Just worth chewing on. :)

Measured the tire diameters tonight. The RA1s are a smidge over 24", the rear Kumhos a smidge over 25 1/2". In the front that's about 1/2" smaller than published but that also means that almost 1/2" of my drop comes from tire diameter, not from the suspension. That's good and I can hang on to my RA1s since they are a smaller diameter than initially thought - 24.2 vs. 24.7. The expense of 17" wheels and tire has been curtailed for a good while and I get to stay with RA1s! YAY!!!!!

-------------------

3/21

A guy on ClubEP3 put some A-Specs on with 225/50/16s and measured 6"f/6 1/4"r. Not sure how much it will settle but that sounds about right. That would make stock height with 16s about 6 3/4"f/7"r. That would put me around 1 1/4"f/1 1/4"r lower than stock. Maybe a touch less.

-------------------------

They are showing as Closeout on Tire rack.

"Dunlop ZII - Discontinued

These tires are now discontinued. I do have pretty good stock on most sizes at this time but they may sell out before the end of the race season. If you need these you may want to purchase them early.

The Replacement which is currently available in Japan is the Dunlop ZII Star Spec. It will not be available here until November/December. This is why no more standard ZII's will be produced as they want to sell out.

As far as the new tire I do not have much information other than it will have about 3 percent increased traction over the standard ZII. While this may not seem like a lot when tires get to this level they are taking small steps. As we know a couple of tenths on a small Auto X course makes a lot of difference." - tire rack guy

[sam10k]

ZII is definitely in the top few and I've mentioned them often.

I don't know the specific stock height at the jacking points, I was quoting Mustclime. Perhaps he was quoting the earlier 15" model, which was .4" lower due to a 24.2" diameter. I've asked a couple of times for measurements but not gotten a viable response - walking out to their EP with a tape measure was too big a task, I guess. ;) My measurements were with 300 or 400 lbs. removed and they were around 7 1/4 - 7 1/2" so you may be correct. Measure from the lowest point. 225/50/16s measure at 25", stock height for the 16s.

Is everything stock, do you have camber bolts? You can't get much camber at stock height and no camber bolts so maybe he's right. I've never messed with much camber on a stock set up. If you don't feel confident with his work get on your local SCCA forum and ask for a reputable shop.

----------------------------------------------------------------

3/20

This has been a good week. Dropped the fronts tonight one psi so they are 33f/30r psi at 75 degrees. Went out and hit a couple of hard corners, the kind that make you shaky and giggly. The camber and psi change has transformed the car. So much more sticky and confidence inspiring. It's a bit softer, too, for now.

I've read that the fastest lap from adjusting psi is usually not what the driver feels is the fastest. And it is usually a softer setting from what the driver thought was fastest that is actually the fastest. Just worth chewing on. :)

Measured the tire diameters tonight. The RA1s are a smidge over 24", the rear Kumhos a smidge over 25 1/2". In the front that's about 1/2" smaller than published but that also means that almost 1/2" of my drop comes from tire diameter, not from the suspension. That's good and I can hang on to my RA1s since they are a smaller diameter than initially thought - 24.2 vs. 24.7. The expense of 17" wheels and tire has been curtailed for a good while and I get to stay with RA1s! YAY!!!!!

-------------------

3/21

A guy on ClubEP3 put some A-Specs on with 225/50/16s and measured 6"f/6 1/4"r. Not sure how much it will settle but that sounds about right. That would make stock height with 16s about 6 3/4"f/7"r. That would put me around 1 1/4"f/1 1/4"r lower than stock. Maybe a touch less.

-------------------------

They are showing as Closeout on Tire rack.

"Dunlop ZII - Discontinued

These tires are now discontinued. I do have pretty good stock on most sizes at this time but they may sell out before the end of the race season. If you need these you may want to purchase them early.

The Replacement which is currently available in Japan is the Dunlop ZII Star Spec. It will not be available here until November/December. This is why no more standard ZII's will be produced as they want to sell out.

As far as the new tire I do not have much information other than it will have about 3 percent increased traction over the standard ZII. While this may not seem like a lot when tires get to this level they are taking small steps. As we know a couple of tenths on a small Auto X course makes a lot of difference." - tire rack guy

I am running on bc coilover (with camber plates) and ingalls rear camber arms. Maybe I need camber bolts.

After measuring from fender line and the ground, I'm not sure that I'm on stock height. It is 25" on the front and 25 1/8" on the rear. The overall diameter of my hankook v12 is 23.5", umm it is far from the official OD (24.7").

I'm reading this thread all over again and you measured 25.5" from the front fender while you were rocking on Z2. The OD of z2 is 23.9 and 23.9 - 23.5 = 0.4 inches which means my suspension drop should be similar with you old setup. But your EP dropped lots of weight....

The up coming Z2 star spec. should be my next set of tires

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hasbro]

Which BCs? I would love feel BC, they sound decent. Camber plates are fine What brand are they? Hotchkis plates can be reversed to give you a nice bit of caster. Not sure if some other brands can do the same.

It"s very easy to under measure tires. I use squares an levels to do it correctly. And it's apples and oranges when trying to compare two different cars. My weights were lighter when I started measuring and different tires (Kumhos, not ZII).

The new ZII Star Specs will be amazing! The current ZII has probably the highest adhesion at it's best but it is peaky. Sort of like a 2-stroke instead of a four -stroke. The BFG Rival is probably an easier tire to drive fast, with good sound feedback. I love the tire wars. Tires are so good now that a barely adequate suspension is sufficient.


--------------------------------

Lancia Scorpion. I want the same rear view mirrors for the EP, except with longer stalks.

[sam10k]

I think that you are talking about Buddy Club. Unfortunately, my set of coilover is BC racing BR. At the time I was considering to buy coilover, Progress, Buddy Club N+ and Koni/GC are on my list. However, BC racing suddenly came with a great price.
Upgrade the rear to 14K swift springs and revalved the shocks is on my to-do list in next year, if I am not satisfy after upgrade my rear sway.

The camber plates are the pair that BC racing coilover come with.......

I think I need some camber bolts after reading this threads
While adding negative camber on the camber plate, it will also adding toe in at the same time. The maximum negative camber we can get with camber plate is around -1.5 to -1.8.
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=376103
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=251038

How many camber bolts are you running? Do you max out the camber bolts first and then add the rest camber you want on the camber plates?

It seems that Rivals is another good choice for my next set of tires. Z2 is more grip on rainy days, but California .................... (I think you know what I mean).
As I am running 16*7 rims, the only size of Rivals, 225/50/16, may create sidewall flex like my current set of Hankook V12 (The soft sidewall of Hankook V12 could be the another reason of sidewall flex)

By the way, Lancia Delta is one of my favorite rally cars when I was small.

[sam10k]

Ep FINALLY goes into the shop tomorrow for; Wilwood kit (11.75"), Type R lcas, basic alignment. Hate to not do it myself but have to have the car finished in one day.

This will subtract 24 lbs. of unsprung from the front including brake shields.

Alignment will be;

front - 0 toe, -1.5 camber
rear - 0 toe, - 1 camber

Just finished lowering another 1/4" all around. Height at the side jack points; front, 6 1/8", rear 6 5/8". Measured at bare metal, sound goop removed. I'm guessing stock heights were about 6 3/4" f and 7" r. Should be within 1/4". Fenders are at 25 1/2" f, 25 7/8 r but will change when pulled out and down. Not very low but looks a bit cleaner. Will stay at this height for a while plus the 1/2" lower Dunlops. Will pull fenders at this height. Then will adjust for final? heights and get corner weighed. Somewhere in there the caster plates will be installed.

That is what I read that you got 25 1/2" on dunlop z2. However, it is apple/orange as your car is reduced weight.

[Hasbro]

Lol, the ramblings of a madman.

You should start a build thread so you can record your movements. I would like to see what you're thinking of doing. The best way to build a car is to build it first in your mind. Collin Chapman (Lotus) designed his cars around what tires were available.

I have one bolt per side. I've never run into a problem yet with getting my desired camber. Camber plate is reversed so at full it only gets half of the camber if set up normally but gives me a couple of degrees of caster. Camber is best set up from below.

^ Just read this and my tiredness shows, Hard, hard day yesterday in a client's yard moving boulders. Kicked my ass and today I have been a sleep-late, lazy, sore, couch potato.

More Lancia because you can't see enough Lancia pics.

[Hasbro]

Underbody Panels

Powdbyrice posted this on Club EP, may have to give up sex for a while;

http://www.motorsport-sales.com/inde...oducts_id=4745


I'll bet Monji's already researched this (sequential shifter);

http://www.quickshifters.com/

[Ba82Ep3]

Shazam! Nice find!

[Hasbro]

Hello everyone, been a while,

The brother I took care of for the last eight years passed away so a little sabbatical from here was, and may continue to a degree, in order. I'll keep it simple and move on.

The traffic here has turned into a trickle, I presume, due to Facebook? Or has Powers scared everyone away?



- Trying to go ahead and spend a little-cash-that's-available-but-shouldn't-be-spent on springs and dampers.

- Can start pulling more weight once I relocate to who knows where. Maybe Hilton Head for a while. I just couldn't take everything out all these years due to driving the bro around. I put the inner doors (15 lbs.) back on so I can pull an "easy" 125 lbs. (mostly up front !) That'll get me in the mid 2,200# range, which is just a hop skip and a jump away from 2,175 the final goal. After that I will start wearing white Jesus robes and bare feet, blessing the less fortunate.

- After removal of stock dash I want make a docking station or whatever it's called and mount my IPad. I have nice little SkullCandy earphones so no speakers are needed. Is this an easy procedure?



2002 with M swap. I want this.




e21 323i, quite rare. I want this.

[Bwek]

yeah it seems everyone is on the facebook group now...

I finally Did the Eibach upgrades on my Koni/gc setup I went 450/700 rides really nice, one thing I've found is that you must get front camber plates the Bushins in the upper mounts are far to soft and you'll get a slight Bounce that is super annoying but is gone with camber plates

[Hasbro]

yeah it seems everyone is on the facebook group now...

I finally Did the Eibach upgrades on my Koni/gc setup I went 450/700 rides really nice, one thing I've found is that you must get front camber plates the Bushins in the upper mounts are far to soft and you'll get a slight Bounce that is super annoying but is gone with camber plates

Good to hear your voice, Bwek. Did you pop the new springs on the stock Konis? How is it on those streets up there? That's a nice spring compromise, about the same as I was going to do. I have plates, too. What are yours, can they be swapped left to right and right to left for caster? What is your alignment? Tires? You need to do a little spec sheet on your build thread. Sounds as if you are having fun with it.

[Ba82Ep3]

Theres a Facebook group?

Sorry to hear about your bro. : (

Chin up. You have rubber to burn...